Two Hour Interview of Chris Hedges

 

From “In Depth” on C-Span January 1, 2023

Chris Hedges

Author and Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Chris Hedges joined Book TV to talk and take calls about political revolution, war, incarceration in America and other topics. His books include America: The Farewell Tour and The Greatest Evil Is War. 

The video of the interview is available at,                                                                               https://www.c-span.org/video/?524629-1/depth-chris-hedges >

~~ recommended by dmorista ~~

Introduction by dmorista:

Chris Hedges is a noted American Leftist, political thinker, one-time journalist with 20 years of work in the war zones of the world (including the Middle East, Yugoslavia, and Central America among other places), and political activist.  He is not a Marxist by any stretch, but he is one of the most astute left-leaning observers of Late Imperial American society and culture.  He is grounded in Christianity, but of the sincere belief and ethical sort, not the phony Prosperity Gospel bible thumping type.  His breadth of knowledge about the roots of our culture and the development of our social order is impressive. 

Chris Hedges sat for this two-hour interview on New Year's day, January 1, of 2023.  It is the first time he has been interviewed on C-Span since 2011.  The Link posted above should take our readers to the interview.  A relatively rough transcript is available here below.

Hedges is a courageous seeker of truth who stood up to his employers and took on the establishment in a variety of situations.  Very notable in this, and a subject of a significant amount of discussion in the interview, is his several years of teaching in the New Jersey State Prison System.  He notes the outrageous ways that many of the prisoners there were treated in the legal system, the fact that 90% - 95% never were afforded a jury trial but were, instead, coerced into pleading guilty to charges in Plea Bargain Deals of one sort of another.

Transcript:

The text in this transcript is identified as being the verbal statements of Chris Hedges (CH), Peter Slen (PS) the interviewer, and Caller (Caller) for the various people who called in during the show. I made a couple of corrections to distorted parts of the transcript.  I used lower case for the corrections.

 

(Show begins with short video clip of Hedges appearing on In Depth in 2011)

PS:   WHY DO YOU THINK WE HAVEN'T FOUND A ROAD TO REDEMPTION? 

CH:   BECAUSE CORPORATE FORCES HAVE SEIZED COMPLETE CONTROL. NOT ONLY OF THE ECONOMY, BUT OF THE APPLICABLE SYSTEM AS WELL. THOSE FORCES HAVE ESSENTIALLY SEIZED UP. WE HAVE WATCHED A POLITICAL STAGNATION FOR VARIOUS REASONS, UNABLE TO GET ANYTHING THROUGH EXCEPT MASSIVE MILITARY BUDGETS, 50 BILLION DOLLARS, THAT'S $45 BILLION MORE THAN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION REQUESTED. WE JUST WENT THROUGH THE COVID CRISIS OF ALL THE INDUSTRIALIZED NATIONS, WE WERE PROBABLY LEAST ABLE TO COPE WITH THE PANDEMIC. 16% OF THE WORLD'S MORTALITY WAS IN THE UNITED STATES, LESS THAN 5% OF THE WORLD POPULATION. THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE A PRIVATIZED HEALTH CARE SERVICE, WE HAVE NO CENTRAL CONTROL. WE HAVE WATCHED HOSPITAL CLOSURES, ESPECIALLY IN RURAL AREAS. IT'S ALL BASED ON PROFIT AND DIMINISHING OF HOSPITAL BEDS AND CARE TO NOT SERVE THE HEALTH OF THE PUBLIC BUT TO SERVE THE BOTTOM LINE.

(Then the January 1, 2023 video begins)

PS:   IN THOSE 11 YEARS SINCE WE SAW YOU AT THIS TABLE, YOU'VE PUT OUT AND ANOTHER SIX BOOKS. THE MORAL IMPERATIVE A REVOLT AS YOU WRITE THE LAST DAYS OF ANY CIVILIZATION, WHEN POPULATIONS ARE AVERTING THEIR EYES FROM THE UNPLEASANT REALITIES BEFORE THEM, BECOME CARNIVALS OF HEDONISM AND FOLLY. THE ROAD TO OBLIVION BECOMES IN THE END A NARCOTIC REVERIE.  

CH:   THAT SUMS UP THE HEDONISM OF AMERICAN CULTURE. PEOPLE DON'T TALK ABOUT -- I'VE WRITTEN STRONGLY AGAINST PORNOGRAPHY ON MANY LEVELS, NOT FROM THE START BECAUSE OF THE OBJECTIFICATION AND DEGRADATION OF WOMEN AS A FORM OF EROTICISM. WITH THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT, AS I SAID, -- THIS KIND OF RETREAT INTO THE CULT OF THE SELF HAS BECOME MORE AND MORE PRONOUNCED AND FUELED BY SOCIAL MEDIA. THERE WAS THE GREAT BOOK "THE IMAGE" -- CALL IT LIFE THE MOVIE. NOW EVERYONE IS CAPABLE OF CREATING LIFE THE MOVIE, BUT IT'S NOT ABOUT HONESTY, IT'S ABOUT SELF PRESENTATION. 

PS:   IF ANYONE WOULD READ THE FIRST CHAPTER OF WAGES OF REBELLION AND THEY DID NOT KNOW YOU WROTE IT, YOU COULD SAY SOMEBODY WHO IS POPULIST WROTE THAT. 

CH:    THAT IS WHAT'S INTERESTING. SOME OF THE CRITIQUE OF OUR SOCIETY BY FORCES, CALL THEM THE OUTRIGHT, THE RADICAL RIGHT AND CHRISTIAN RIGHT AND I'VE WRITTEN STRONGLY AGAINST THESE MOVEMENTS, SOME OF THE CRITIQUE IS CORRECT. THEY ARE NOT ALWAYS WRONG IN THE CRITIQUE. BUT I DISAGREE WITH THEM ON IS THE SOLUTION. 

PS:   THE SOLUTION BEING? 

CH:   I'M KIND OF THE OLD-STYLE SWEDISH SOCIALIST ONE HEAVY CONTROL OF CAPITALISM, HEAVY TAXATION, STRONG EMPOWERMENT OF UNIONS AND SOCIAL EQUALITY. YOU REACH A POINT IN A COUNTRY LIKE SWEDEN WHERE YOU ERADICATE POVERTY. NOT MARXIST, BUT THE OLD SOCIALIST TRADITION, JOHN DEWEY IN THESE KINDS OF FIGURES. LIEBER WAS A BIG INFLUENCE AND REMAINS A BIG INFLUENCE. THE SOLUTION IS TO ADDRESS THE ILLS, THE DISLOCATION, THE DISENFRANCHISEMENT. YOU HAVE THE BOOK THERE, AMERICA THE FAREWELL TOUR, THAT COMES OUT OF NEIL DURKHEIM. IN HIS BOOK WRITTEN ON SUICIDE, HE ASKS THE QUESTION WHAT IS IT THAT DRIVES INDIVIDUALS AND SOCIETIES TO COMMIT ACTS OF SELF ANNIHILATION? WHAT WAS HIS STUDY. HE SAID IT'S ABOUT THE RUPTURING OF SOCIAL BONDS. WHEN YOU HAVE A JOB COME WHEN YOU HAVE A PLACE IN THE SOCIETY -- THIS IS WHY THE OLD BOOK ALONE IS IMPORTANT -- WHEN YOU ARE NIT TO A COMMUNITY, THOSE ARE FORMS OF SOCIAL CONTROL. WHEN THOSE SOCIAL BONDS ARE ERADICATED, SOCIAL CONTROL BECOMES MUCH MORE COERCIVE, WHICH IS HOW YOU GET MILITARIZED POLICE IN OUR INTERNAL COLONIES, CENTRALLY FUNCTIONING AS ARMIES OF OCCUPATION. IT'S HOW YOU GET THE EXPLOSION OF MASS INCARCERATION. IT IS IN THAT BOOK, IT GOES FROM DURKHEIM AND DOES NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION OF HOW TO WE GET THERE BUT LOOKS AT THE PATHOLOGY, OPIOID, GAMBLING -- I WROTE IT -- HATE GROUPS. DURKHEIM WRITES THOSE WHO SEEK THE ANNIHILATION OF OTHERS ARE DRIVEN BY FEELINGS OF SELF ANNIHILATION. WE SEE THIS IN THE SHOOTERS WHO FINALLY TURNED THE GUNS ON THEMSELVES. 

CH:   AS SOMEONE WHO WENT TO THE HARVARD SCHOOL AND IS AN ORDAINED MINISTER, I DON'T KNOW IF FAILURE OF CHRISTIANITY IS THE CORRECT TERM, BUT CHRISTIANITY IS FAILING AT THIS POINT IN AMERICA. IS THAT A CORRECT WAY OF PUTTING IT?

PS:  I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT. 

CH:   AND THOSE BONDS AS WELL. 

CH:   CHURCHES ARE DYING RIGHT AND LEFT. I THINK TOO MUCH OF THE WIDER CULTURE, INCLUDING THE CULT OF SELF INFECTED CHURCH. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE LIBERAL CHURCH. HOW IS IT WITH ME? TO ME, THAT'S JUST A FORM OF NARCISSISM. THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION IS NOT HOW IS IT WITH ME, BUT HOW IS IT WITH MY NEIGHBOR? I'M VERY CRITICAL OF THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT. I CONSIDER THEM HERETICAL. THAT'S A VERY UNPOPULAR STANCE WHEN I WROTE AMERICAN FASTEST, THE CHRISTIAN WAR IN AMERICA. BUT IF WE LOOK AT JANUARY 6, THE CONNECTING TISSUE IS WHAT I WOULD CALL CHRISTIAN FASCISM. THAT WAS A TERM USED BY MY GREAT PROFESSOR JAMES LUTHER ADAMS, WHO IS IN HIS 80'S WHEN I HAD HIM. BUT HE HAD BEEN IN GERMANY IN 1935 AND 1936 AT THE UNIVERSITY OF HEIDELBERG. WATCHING HEIDELBERG BEGIN HIS LECTURES WITH A NAZI SALUTE. HE DROPPED OUT. HE WAS ARRESTED BY THE GESTAPO AND EXPELLED. HE SAW -- THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE EARLY 80'S, THE MASSIVE BEGINNING OF WHAT HE HAD SEEN IN NAZI GERMANY, WHICH WAS THE SO-CALLED GERMAN CHRISTIAN CHURCH, WHICH WAS PRO-NAZI. YOU HAD A NAZI SWASTIKA INSIDE THE PULPIT AND A CHRISTIAN CROSS ON THE OTHER. THIS IS ONE OF THE FAILINGS OF THE LIBERAL CHURCH IS THAT THEY DIDN'T STAND UP. JESUS DID NOT COME TO MAKE US RICH. YOU DON'T NEED TO SPEND THREE YEARS AT HARVARD DIVINITY SCHOOL TO FIGURE THAT OUT. HE DID NOT COME TO BLESS EMPIRES OR THE WHITE RACE OR A PARTICULAR AMERICAN RACE ABOVE OTHER RACES. PART OF THE FAILING OF THE LIBERAL CHURCHES THEY DID NOT FIGHT FOR THE GOSPEL. THEY REFLECTED THE WIDER CULTURE, WITHDREW FROM THE SOCIAL TURNS -- MY FATHER WAS A PRESBYTERIAN MINISTER AND WAS IN NORTH AFRICA IN WORLD WAR II, WAS AN ARMY VETERAN. HE CAME BACK AND HATED WAR AND WAS ALL BUT NAME A PACIFIST. HE WAS INVOLVED IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND THE WAR MOVEMENT AGAINST VIETNAM. BUT THAT DID CREATE FRICTION IN THE CHURCH. THAT SOCIAL COMMITMENT IS THE LIFEBLOOD OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BEAR CHRISTIAN WITNESS WHICH -- FOR 13 YEARS NOW. 

PS:   THE PROSPERITY GOSPEL IS NOT WHEN YOU AGREE WITH? 

CH:   I GET HERESY. WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS THE WORST ASPECTS OF THE CULT OF SELF AND CONSUMER CULTURE AND IMPERIALISM HAVE BEEN -- WRITE THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT. THEY DID IT IN FRANCO'S SPAIN. I LIVED IN ARGENTINA AT THE END OF THE DIRTY WAR IN THE CHURCH BEARS UPON'S ABILITY FOR THAT. I THOUGHT WHEN I COVERED THE WAR IN THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA WITH THE CHURCH EMBRACING ETHNIC NATIONALISM AND SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC. WE HAVE TO DRAW THE DISTINCTION, WHICH GREAT THEOLOGIANS DO, BETWEEN THE INSTITUTION AND THE CHRISTIAN CALL. MY FATHER WAS PRETTY MUCH PUSHED OUT OF THE CHURCH FOR HIS STANCE ON LGBTQ RIGHTS, WHICH WAS NOT A POPULAR POSITION TO TAKE PUBLIC LEAF. 

PS:   YOU GRADUATED FROM HARVARD TO 30 SCHOOL IN 83 BUT DID NOT BECOME AN ORDAINED MINISTER UNTIL 2014. WHY THE LAG?

CH:   YOU ARE APPROVED FOR ORDINATION BEFORE YOU GO TO DIVINITY SCHOOL, SO IT'S JUST A MATTER OF GOING BEFORE THAT COMMITTEE ONCE YOU FINISH THE ACADEMIC WORK, WHICH I DID AND TELLING THAT COMMITTEE WHAT YOUR CALL IS. THE TRADITIONAL CALL AS I'M GOING TO BE A PASTOR OF THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH AND I SAID I'M GOING TO GO TO EL SALVADOR AND BE A FREELANCE JOURNALIST AND COVER THE WAR. THERE WAS A LONG SILENCE AND THEY SAID WE DON'T ORDAINED JOURNALISTS. I REMEMBER MY DAD WAS SEATED OUTSIDE. AT THAT POINT, A PARISH MINISTER FOR 30 OR 40 YEARS. THERE MUST'VE BEEN DISAPPOINTMENT, BUT HE SAID YOU ARE ORDAINED TO WRITE. AND I CAME BACK AFTER 20 YEARS OVERSEAS COVERING CONFLICTS AROUND THE GLOBE. I BEGAN TEACHING IN THE PRISON SYSTEM, WAS BROUGHT IN BY A WONDERFUL PROFESSOR IN NEW JERSEY. THIS WAS BEFORE THERE WAS ANY COLLEGE PROGRAM. WE WERE TEACHING SEMESTER LONG PROGRAMS AND PRINTING OUT A CERTIFICATE BUT HAD NO ACADEMIC VALIDITY BUT SHOWED THEY HAD DONE THE WORK. THIS SEMESTER, I TAUGHT TO STUDENTS, ONE OF WHOM HAD TAKEN MY COURSE ON KING LEAR, WHICH I HAD DONE IN A SUPER MAX PRISON AND THE OTHER HAD TAKEN A COURSE I HAD DONE ON AMERICAN HISTORY IN PREPARATION OF A WONDERFUL PROGRAM RUN BY RUTGERS. SO I CAME BACK AND BEGAN WORKING WITH MY FRIEND, MICHAEL GRANDSON, WHO I HAD GONE TO HARVARD VANITY SCHOOL WITH. HE HAS A CHURCH IN NEW JERSEY AND WAS GETTING HEALTH INSURANCE FROM THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH IN SUMMIT MINISTER COMPLAINED I WAS NOT ORDAINED. SO, I WENT TO THE FIRESTONE LIBRARY AT PRINCETON UNIVERSITY -- I HAD FORGOTTEN MOST EVERYTHING FROM MY DEGREE AND RESURRECTED IT ALL AND TOOK ALL FIVE EXAMS AND PASSED IT. THEN WE HAD A VERY MOVING ORDINATION SERVICE. CORNELL WEST AND JAMES CAAN SPOKE, WE HAD A BLUES BAND AND INVITED ALL THE FAMILIES -- IT'S ACTUALLY ON YOUTUBE. MY WIFE ABSOLUTELY STOLE THE SHOW.    

PS:   IN THE BOOK "UNSPEAKABLE" AND I WILL LET YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THIS BOOK IS -- DAVID TALBOT SAYS HEDGES, WHO IS THE SON OF A PRESBYTERIAN MINISTER AND GRADUATE OF THE HARVARD UNITY SCHOOL HAS THE TEMPERAMENT OF A BIBLICAL PROFIT AS HE RAILS AGAINST THE EVILS OF THE CAPITALIST SYSTEM.

CH:   I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY RIGHT AND I WILL LOOK BACK AT MY OWN RAILINGS AND WISH I HAD TONED THEM DOWN A LITTLE BIT. BUT LET'S NOT FORGET MOST OF THE BOUCLE PROFITS WERE CONSIDERED AT BEST ECCENTRIC, IF NOT INSANE. THERE IS A WONDERFUL BOOK -- I THINK IT'S CALLED THE PROPHETS -- A GREAT JEWISH THEOLOGIAN -- THAT'S THE ROLE OF A GOOD WRITER AND THE ROLE OF A GOOD MINISTER OR PASTOR. THAT COMMITMENT TO TRUTH, EVEN UNPLEASANT TRUTH. MY CAREER WAS SPENT IN THE NEWSPAPER INDUSTRY, 15 WITH THE NEW YORK TIMES. WHAT WE DO AS PRINT JOURNALISTS AS WE MANIPULATE FACTS. WE SELECT FACTS AND MANIPULATE THOSE FACTS TO TELL A PARTICULAR STORY. YOU CAN TAKE ALL THOSE FACTS, I CAN DO IT, WE CAN ALL DO IT, SPIN IT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. THERE ARE JOURNALISTS WHO WILL SPIN THOSE STORIES SO THAT IT'S GOOD FOR THEIR CAREERS AND DON'T UPSET THE CENTER OF POWER. THEN THERE ARE THOSE JOURNALISTS WHO HAVE A COMMITMENT TO THE TRUTH AND MAKE SURE THEY MARSHALED US FACTS TO TELL THE TRUTH. I THINK -- SOMEONE GREAT TO THIS DAY, USUALLY INFLUENCED BY GEORGE ORWELL -- THAT COMMITMENT TO TRUTH DEFINES A GOOD PREACHER AND A GOOD JOURNALIST.  

PS:   I WANT TO GO TO "AMERICA: THE FAREWELL TOUR." HOW DID YOU ORGANIZE THAT BOOK INTO CHAPTERS? 

CH:   I SELECTED WHAT I THOUGHT WERE THE MOST PROMINENT PATHOLOGIES WE WERE SUFFERING. THE OPIOID CRISIS -- WE HAVE 100,000 PEOPLE YOUR DIE FROM OPIOID OVERDOSES. I SPENT TIME WITH HEROIN ADDICTS. BUT LIKE A LOT OF HEROIN ADDICTS, THEY BEGIN ON PRESCRIPTION DRUGS AND IT BECOMES EXPENSIVE AND THEY SWITCH TO HEROIN. THAT WAS DRAWN FROM MY READING OF DURKHEIM AND I WANTED TO LOOK AT HOW THESE PATHOLOGIES WERE TEARING APART THE COUNTRY. THESE PATHOLOGIES ARE THE NATURAL CONSEQUENCE OF A SOCIETY. 

PS:   I'M GOING TO READ TWO QUOTES -- ONE IS ABOUT GAMBLING AND THE OTHER IS ABOUT PROSTITUTION. IT IS DIFFICULT TO CHALLENGE THE LIES DISSEMINATED BY SEX WORKERS JUST AS IT IS TO CHALLENGE THE LIES ABOUT MILITARY VIRTUE. THE SECOND QUOTE -- SLOT MACHINES CATER TO THE LONGING TO FLEE FROM THE OPPRESSIVE WORLD OF DEAD END JOBS, CRIPPLING DEBT SOCIAL STAGNATION AND A DYSFUNCTIONAL POLITICAL SYSTEM. SO PROSTITUTION AND GAMBLING. 

CH:   THE PROSTITUTION INDUSTRY , WHICH IS VERY WEALTHY, WILL PUT FORWARD PEOPLE WHO WILL SPEAK ON BEHALF OF QUOTE UNQUOTE SEX WORK. THOSE WHO I THINK SPEAK MORE HONESTLY, RACHEL MORAN HAS A GOOD BOOK ON THIS -- THEIR VOICES ARE QUITE ACTIVELY PUSHED ASIDE. PROSTITUTION -- I DON'T EVEN LIKE THE WORD PROSTITUTION -- I WOULD SAY PEOPLE ARE BEING PROSTITUTED. I COVERED FOR. THE ONLY THING THAT IS PRODUCED IN GREATER NUMBERS THAN PROSTITUTED WOMEN IN A WAR ZONE ARE CORPSES. WAR IN EL SALVADOR IN THE RURAL AREAS, THEY WERE DECIMATED. MANY WOMEN WERE NOW LIVING WITHOUT SPOUSES OR BROTHERS AND HAD TO FLEE THEIR HOMES IN THE CITY AND IN THE CAPITAL IS A GIANT RED LIGHT DISTRICT. IT WASN'T A CHOICE. THEY HAD NO OTHER CHOICE. I SAW THIS IN THE FORMER -- AND THEY WERE IN THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA. MAYBE FOR A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF WOMEN IT IS A CHOICE. BUT MY EXPERIENCE, ESPECIALLY HAVING BEEN IN WAR ZONES AND FOLLOWED PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING PROSTITUTED, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER CHOICE IN ORDER TO FEED THEIR CHILDREN. THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF STUDIES, THE TRAUMA, SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED DISEASES, THOSE WOMEN AND GIRLS WHO ARE BEING PROSTITUTED HAVE APPALLINGLY SHORT LIFESPANS. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A WORLD WHERE IF PEOPLE WANT THAT AS A CHOICE, THAT'S FINE, BUT CERTAINLY IN MY EXPERIENCE IS THE VAST, VAST MAJORITY, THEY ARE CORNERED. THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. I WOULD LIKE TO CREATE A WORLD WHERE ESPECIALLY WOMEN AND GIRLS HAVE CHOICES AND A CHOICE NOT TO DO THAT. 

PS:   GAMBLING? 

CH:   I DON'T GAMBLE, SO IT IS NEW TO ME. THEY CALL IT IN THE ZONE AND IT IS QUITE SCIENTIFIC. THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. THAT WAS FASCINATING BECAUSE YOU WOULD THINK FROM OUTSIDE PERSPECTIVE WHEN PEOPLE GO TO SLOT MACHINES, THE SLOTS ARE THE BIG THING. TO WIN, TO MAKE MONEY, BUT NO. IF THEY WIN ANYTHING, IT DISRUPTS THE FACT THEY ARE THROWN INTO A KIND OF COCOON. THERE ARE NO CLOCKS ON THE WALL, IT IS A LABYRINTH. AS SOON AS YOU GO IN, YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THE EXIT DOOR IS. THAT IS ALL ON PURPOSE. WHAT THEY SEEK IS NOT SO MUCH WINNING BUT THEY SEEK BEING IN THE ZONE, REMOVING THEMSELVES FROM THE STRUGGLES OF THE DESPAIR OF DAILY LIFE. THESE CASINOS PLAY -- PRAY QUITE A FLECKED TO PLAY ON THAT. -- PRAY QUITE EFFECTIVELY ON THAT. AND THEY DESTROY LIVES, NOT JUST FINANCIALLY, BUT THEIR MARRIAGES AND THEIR JOBS. THEY START IN ORDER TO FEED THE ADDICTION. 

PS:   WHEN IT COMES TO THESE TWO PATHOLOGIES, SEX WORK AND GAMBLING, IS THERE A LEGISLATIVE CURE, SOCIETAL CURE OR MORAL CURE? 

CH:   NO. THERE'S A SOCIETAL CURE BUT THERE IS NOT A LEGISLATIVE CURE. THAT'S REINTEGRATING THESE PEOPLE BACK INTO SOCIETY. WHEN I DID MY BOOK ON THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT, I WENT IN WITH THE LIBERAL BIASES OF A LIBERAL PRESBYTERIAN. IN FACT, LISTENING TO THESE STORIES OF PEOPLE WITHIN THESE MEGA-CHURCHES, YOU HAVE TO BE HEARTLESS NOT TO FEEL FOR WHAT THEY'VE GONE THROUGH -- EVICTIONS, DOMESTIC ABUSE, SUBSTANCE ABUSE, PROLONGED OR CHRONIC UNEMPLOYMENT OR UNDEREMPLOYMENT. THE FIRST TITLE OF THAT BOOK IS CALLED DESPAIR AND AT THE END, I SAID THE ONLY WAY TO BREAK THE BACK OF THIS MOVEMENT IS TO REINTEGRATE THESE PEOPLE INTO SOCIETY. I THINK IN "AMERICA: THE FAREWELL TOUR" WHAT I AM SAYING IS THESE PEOPLE HAVE TO BE REINTEGRATED BACK INTO SOCIETY. MEANING A KIND OF INCOME THAT IS BEYOND SUBSISTENCE LEVEL. SOME SENSE OF MERITOCRACY, ALL OF THAT IS WHAT IS GOING TO CURE. WE ARE NOT GOING TO DO IT LEGISLATIVELY. 

PS:   IN "AMERICA: THE FAREWELL TOUR" YOU WRITE THAT WE LIVE IN A TWO-TIERED LEGAL SYSTEM. 

CH:   I KNOW ABOUT THAT BECAUSE I TEACH IN THE PRISON. IF YOU WORK FOR GOLDMAN SACHS OR LEHMAN BROTHERS OR IF YOU ORCHESTRATE THE LARGEST FINANCIAL FRAUD IN DECADES, YOU DON'T GO TO JAIL. IF YOU WALK INTO A BODEGA AND GRAB A COUPLE OF CASES OF BEER AND RUN OUT THE DOOR, YOU ARE GOING TO END UP IN JAIL. ISHMAEL REED HAD THAT GREAT LINE -- I HEARD HIM GIVE A TALK AT A BOOK FESTIVAL AND HE SAID BLACK PEOPLE SHOULDN'T EVEN TRY AND STEAL. LEAVE THAT TO THE WHITE PEOPLE. MATT TIE YOU B WROTE A BOOK ON THIS CALL DIVIDE WHERE HE FOLLOWED THE PEOPLE WHO CARRIED OUT FINANCIAL FRAUD AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM IN THE COURTROOM AND THEN HE WENT TO THE CIVIL COURTS WHERE POOR PEOPLE WERE GETTING WHACKED, A LOT OF IT BECAUSE THESE COUNTIES DEPEND ON UP TO 30% OR 40% OF THEIR INCOME FROM FINES. ST. LOUIS COUNTY, FOR INSTANCE. SO THEY INVENT CRIMES. WHEN ERIC GARNER WAS KILLED IN INDIANAPOLIS -- MY FAVORITE IS OBSTRUCTING PEDESTRIAN TRAFFIC. THESE THINGS TO HARASS THE POOR IN ORDER TO GENERATE INCOME. IT IS A COMPLETELY TWO-TIERED LEGAL SYSTEM. AND WE MUST NOT FORGET, ALTHOUGH EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO A FAIR TRIAL, AND 95% OR 96% OF THOSE IN OUR PRISON SYSTEM NEVER GET A JURY TITLE -- NEVER GET A JURY TRIAL BECAUSE THEY ARE COERCED TO PLEA OUT. HOW DOES THAT WORK? THEY STACK ALL SORTS OF CHARGES AGAINST YOU, MANY OF WHICH THE PROSECUTOR AND POLICE KNOW THAT YOU DID NOT COMMIT AND THEN THEY ORGAN. KIDNAPPING IS A FAVORITE. THEY WILL TAKE OFF KIDNAPPING. IF YOU GO TO A JURY TRIAL, YOU RARELY HAVE ADEQUATE LEGAL REPRESENTATION AND ALL OF THOSE CHARGES STAY. ONE OF THE TRAGEDIES IS -- AND I WOULD ESTIMATE MAYBE 20% OR 25% OF PEOPLE DO NOT COMMIT THE CRIME FOR WHICH THEY ARE IMPRISONED FOR AND THEY ARE OFTEN THE ONES WHO WENT TO TRIAL, AND THEY THOUGHT THAT BECAUSE THEY WERE INNOCENT, THE SYSTEM WOULD FIND THEM INNOCENT AND THAT WAS THE BIG MISTAKE. BECAUSE THEY ARE USED AS AN EXAMPLE. YOU DON'T WANT TO PLEA OUT. 

PS:   YOU ALLUDED TO THIS A COUPLE OF TIMES AND WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT YOUR WORK IN PRISON THROUGH YOUR BOOK "OUR CLASS." 

CH:   THERE TWO BOOKS I CAN'T READ THROUGH WITHOUT GETTING EMOTIONAL AND ONE IS OUR CLASS AND ONE IS THE FIRST BOOK. I WENT INTO THE SYSTEM -- I HAD COME BACK FROM BEING OVERSEAS. THERE IS A SIX-MONTH LAG WHEN YOU FINISH A BOOK BEFORE YOU START A BOOK TOUR AND THERE'S A DEAD TIME. YOU MIGHT WRITE A PROPOSAL BUT IT'S HARD TO WRITE ANOTHER BOOK UNTIL THE BOOK TOUR IS OVER. I WENT INTO A YOUTH CORRECTIONAL FACILITY IN NEW JERSEY. THERE WAS NO COLLEGE PROGRAM AND WHAT I FOUND IS THAT THERE IS THIS PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WITHIN THE PRISON SYSTEM WHO ARE DEDICATED SCHOLARS, WHO HAVE TURNED THEMSELVES INTO LIBRARIES AND ARE ACADEMICALLY VERY GIFTED. THEY GREW UP IN COMMUNITIES WHERE THE SCHOOLS WERE DYSFUNCTIONAL, WHERE THERE WAS NO STABILITY, NO HOME, AND I FOUND SUCH REMARKABLE STUDENTS THAT I STAYED WITH IT. IN THIS PARTICULAR BOOK, IN 2013, I HELPED A CLASS IN EAST JERSEY STATE PRISON TO WRITE A PLAY ABOUT THEIR LIVES. IT ENDED UP BEING CALLED "CAGED." 

PS:   WHAT IS THE PICTURE WE ARE SHOWING NOW? 

CH:   THAT IS THE CLASS. SOME OF WHOM ARE THANKFULLY OUT. I STUMBLED INTO IT. IT WAS A DRAMA CLASS WHERE WE WERE READING AUGUST WILSON AND OTHER GREAT PLAYWRIGHTS. I REALIZED WHAT I ASKED IS THERE WAS VERY LITTLE REAL EXPERIENCE. THEY COULD NOT PAY EXORBITANT THEATER PRICES TO WRITE A THEATER PRODUCTION. SO I HAD THEM WRITE SCENES. EVERYTHING IS AN INTERPRETATION OF THE ACTOR, ALMOST EVERYTHING IS DIALOGUE. WHAT I DIDN'T KNOW IS ONE OF MY STUDENTS, HIS NICKNAME IS KABIR. HE HAD HEARD ME ON THE NEW YORK PACIFICA STATION. HE RECRUITED THE BEST WRITERS IN THE PRISON. I HAD TO BE EIGHT STUDENTS AND I GET TO THE ROOM AND IT'S UNBELIEVABLE. THERE WERE MAYBE A HALF-DOZEN REALLY GIFTED WRITERS. THIS HAPPENED AFTER A COUPLE OF WEEKS. I SHOWED THEM TO MY WIFE WHO'S A PROFESSIONAL ACTOR AND I SAID I THINK I'M GOING TO HELP THEM WRITE A PLAY. I WAS WORKING ON A BOOK AND IT'S ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS WHERE YOU CAN THE BOOK UNTIL YOUR PUBLISHER -- I CAN ADD ANOTHER CLASS IF THEY NEED REMEDIAL HELP , SO I SIGNED UP ALL TO BE EIGHT STUDENTS FOR REMEDIAL HELP. THERE WAS A LITTLE GRUMBLING, BUT THEY ALL CAME. 

PS:   YOU JUICED THE SYSTEM. 

CH:   I JUICED THE SYSTEM. WHEN YOU GO IN THERE, THEY ARE VERY WARY. I'M WHITE, I'VE NOT GONE THROUGH THEIR EXPERIENCE AT ALL. YOU DON'T EXPRESS EMOTION IN PRISON. IN FACT YOU DON'T EVEN TELL YOUR STORY. YOU DON'T SAY WHY YOU ARE THERE. YOU DON'T OFTEN USE YOUR LEGAL NAME, SO THEY OFTEN HAVE -- THEY ALL HAVE PRISON NAMES. PEOPLE STARTED WRITING SCENES AND THEY WERE JUST HEARTBREAKING. SOME OF THEM WOULD GET UP IN THEIR HANDS WOULD START TO SHAKE AND THEY WOULD BREAK DOWN. SOME OF THEM, THEY COULDN'T EVEN READ. IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THEY HAD EXPRESSED THESE EXPERIENCES PUBLICLY TO ANYONE IN PRISON. AND IT BROKE THE WALLS. IT BECAME UNINTENTIONALLY THIS FORM OF THERAPY. WHEN I BEGAN, I SAID WHO WANTS A PART, WE WILL WRITE A PLAY. SEVEN PEOPLE WANTED PARTS. A FEW WEEKS LATER, ALL 28 STUDENTS WANT APART. AND THEY WOULD COMPLAIN -- WE ARE GOING TO RUN OUT OF TIME, WE'VE GOT TO READ OUR SCENES. THEN I WOULD TAKE ALL OF THESE SCENES HOME AND EDIT THEM. SOMETIMES I WOULD MELD THEM AND WE HAD A ROUGH NARRATIVE BASED ON AN ACTUAL EXPERIENCE OF SOMEONE WHO HAD BEEN INCARCERATED. THEN WE WOULD GO BACK AND I HAD A SQUAD OF THREE OR FOUR REALLY GOOD WRITERS. MAY BE SENT DOWN THE HALL TO THE LAW LIBRARY TO WRITE SOMETHING AND BRING IT BACK. IT WAS AN AMAZING PROCESS. BUT IT EXPOSED SO MUCH NOT ONLY ABOUT MASS INCARCERATION BUT WHERE THEY CAME FROM, WHAT THEY HAD ENDURED. I WROTE THE BOOK AS A KIND OF VEHICLE TO LOOK AT THAT WHOLE SYSTEM OF POVERTY, POLICE VIOLENCE, COURTS AND THE PRISON SYSTEM. THE PLAY WAS PERFORMED AT THE PASSAGE THEATER IN TRENTON, NEW JERSEY AND IT WAS SOLD OUT EVERY NIGHT BECAUSE TRENTON IS A CITY WHERE MOST FAMILIES HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH MASS INCARCERATION. WE HAD ONE NIGHT FOR THE FAMILIES OF THE PLAYERS WHICH WAS VERY MOVING. AFTER THREE OR FOUR MINUTES, I WOULD HEAR SOMEONE START SOBBING. THEN IT WAS PUBLISHED. MY HEART IS ON EVERY PAGE OF THIS BOOK IN A WAY IT WAS ON THE USE OF FORCE. IT GIVES A WINDOW INTO A SEGMENT OF OUR POPULATION WHICH HAS NOT ONLY BEEN DEMONIZED, BUT IT EXPLAINS WHO THEY ARE AND WHERE THEY CAME FROM AND ALSO THEIR HOPES AND DREAMS. THERE ARE PARTS OF IT WITH VERY RAW HUMOR, THERE ARE PARTS THAT ARE VERY FUNNY. I SPENT TWO YEARS ON IT. IT'S A BOOK THAT MEANS A LOT TO ME. 

PS:   (What) WAS THE PROCESS LIKE TO GET INTO THE PRISON TO TEACH THIS CLASS?

CH:    YOU HAVE TO BE CLEARED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS. THAT'S A TWO-MONTH PROCESS. I HAVE SINCE 2013 DONE THIS THROUGH RUTGERS UNIVERSITY. YOU NEED AT LEAST A MASTERS DEGREE, WHICH I HAVE. I HAVE TOO, LIKE ALL THE PROFESSORS, I HAVE TO EXPRESS MY GRATITUDE TO THE DEPARTMENT OF DIRECTORS BECAUSE IT IS A LOT OF WORK. THERE WAS HESITANCY WHEN WE BEGAN BUT NOW -- I'VE BEEN IN THERE SO LONG, I KNOW ALL THE CORRECTIONS OFFICERS NAMES AND HOW THEIR FAMILIES ARE DOING. THEY HAVE BEEN GREAT. IN ORDER TO GET INTO THE PROGRAM, YOU HAVE ABOUT 140 STUDENTS IN THE PROGRAM, BUT THERE ARE HUNDREDS THAT APPLY, ABOUT 2000. YOU CAN'T GET IN UNLESS YOUR DISCIPLINARY RECORD IS CLEAN. SO YOU HAVE A SIGNIFICANT PORTION IN THAT PRISON WORKING VERY HARD TO NOT MAKE PROBLEMS. THEN WE HAVE RECIDIVISM STATISTICS THAT ARE STAGGERING. 3000 PEOPLE THROUGH THE COLLEGE PROGRAM, SOME OF THOSE HAVE ONLY TAKEN ONE COURSE COME BUT 3000, OF THAT 3000, 5 PERCENT HAVE GONE BACK TO PRISON. OF THE 184 PEOPLE WHO FINISH THEIR BA, ONE HAS GONE BACK TO PRISON. LESS THAN 1%. AND IT IS A SACRED MOMENT IN THAT CLASSROOM. THEY FEEL, WHAT THEY THINK IS IMPORTANT. I ONCE TAUGHT WHAT THEY CALL IT INSIDE OUT CLASS, YOU BROUGHT THE PRINCETON KIDS INTO THE PRISON AND I DIDN'T LIKE IT BECAUSE THOSE PRINCETON KIDS DID NOT GET HOW SACRED THIS WAS, HOW IMPORTANT THAT MOMENT IS TO THE STUDENTS AND YOU HAVE A CLASS OF 30, IT MEANS THERE ARE 15 FROM THE PRISON. THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF GREAT PROFESSORS. IT WAS VERY POWERFUL AND WE HAD JUST FINISHED TEACHING THE ARCHIPELAGO. ALL THREE VOLUMES. IT CAN BE VERY EMOTIONAL. 

PS:   COULD EAST VILLAGE PRISONERS RELATE TO GULAGS ARCHIPELAGO?

CH:    IT'S FAR MORE EXTREME UNDER STALIN. I'M NOT EQUATING THE U.S. PRISON SYSTEM WITH THE GULAGS. THEY DON'T SUFFER THE WAY STALIN'S VICTIMS DID. BUT THERE'S A LOT OF COMMONALITY. ARREST, THE EXPERIENCE OF ARREST, THE TRIAL, INTERROGATION , DEALING WITH CORRECTIONS OFFICERS WHO ARE ALL POWERFUL. ONE OF THE THINGS YOU MUST DO IN A PRISON IS YOU CAN'T, EVEN IF YOU ARE THIS RESPECTED BEFORE YOU TO RESPOND EVEN VERBALLY MEANS YOU GET A CHARGE AND LOSE EVERY PRIVILEGE YOU HAVE AND GO INTO ISOLATION. SO THERE IS A LOT OF CONTAINED WHICH SALSA WRITES ABOUT. -- SOSA NEESON WRITES ABOUT. IT'S NOT JUST HISTORY OF THE GULAGS, THERE'S A CHAPTER AT THE END OF VOLUME TWO CALLED THE ASCENT WHERE HE WRITES GOD BLESS PRISON. HE WRITES GOD BLESS PRISON BECAUSE HE LEARNED HIS HUMILITY. HE HAD BEEN A CAPTAIN IN THE RED ARMY. HE'S HIGHLY EDUCATED. HE HAS TO DECIDE WHAT KIND OF PERSON IS HE GOING TO BE? IS HE GOING TO LIVE AT THE EXPENSE OF SOMEONE ELSE? OR IS HE GOING TO ACCEPT WORK DETAIL RATHER THAN A JOB THAT WOULD PROTECT HIM FROM -- THE DEATH RATE WAS QUITE HIGH GIVEN THE WORKING CONDITIONS IN SIBERIA IN THE GULAGS AREA, WHERE IT WAS 40 BELOW OR SOMETHING. HE BECOMES A MORAL BEING. HE ALSO BECOMES A CHRISTIAN. HE GOES AND AS A MARXIST. HE SAID THE TWO GROUPS WERE BEST ABLE TO ENDURE THE GULAGS WHERE THE CHECHENS, WHO WERE MUSLIM AND CHRISTIANS. IT'S AN AMAZING BOOK. THAT CHAPTER, I SENT, IS A DISTILLATION OF THAT ACHIEVEMENT OF BECOMING A MORAL BEING. NELSON MANDELA WRITES ABOUT THIS. I'M NOT ROMANTIC ABOUT SUFFERING. I SAW A LOT AS A WAR CORRESPONDENT AND IT CAN DESTROY YOU. FOR OTHERS, IT CAN ELEVATE YOU. THAT'S HOW I WOULD DESCRIBE MY STUDENTS. THAT ASCENT CHAPTER, I HAVE THE STUDENTS DO A SUMMARY OF EVERY CHAPTER BEFORE THE CLASS. SO WE WOULD READ THREE CHAPTERS A CLASS AND THE STUDENT WHO DID THE ASCENT CHAPTER HAD BEEN IN PRISON AT THE AGE OF 16. SO WE ARE ESSENTIALLY IMPRISONING CHILDREN. LAWRENCE BELL WAS IN PRISON AT THE AGE OF 14 AND GOT A SENTENCE . HE WASN'T ELIGIBLE TO GO BEFORE APRIL BOARD. LAWRENCE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE. I TAUGHT A CLASS CALLED CONQUEST. LAWRENCE, A STELLAR STUDENT, WENT ON TO GRADUATE SUMO COMMODITY FROM RUTGERS. BUT AT THAT POINT, WE DID NOT KNOW HE WAS GOING TO GET OUT. HE SAID I KNOW I'M GOING TO DIE IN THIS PRISON. I WORK AS HARD AS I DO BECAUSE SOMEDAY, I'M GOING TO BE A TEACHER LIKE YOU. PEOPLE ASK ABOUT HOPE, AND THAT IS WHERE HOPE IS. I COULD LIVE OFF OF THAT -- IT DIDN'T CHANGE THE WORLD, MAYBE IT COULD CHANGE THE WORLD ONE PERSON AT A TIME. THAT IS WHERE HOPE LIES. THERE'S A KIND OF INTANGIBLE QUALITY WHICH I THINK GETS BACK TO MY OWN RELIGIOUS TRAINING. I ASKED DANIEL BARRAGAN, THE GREAT RADICAL PRIEST HOW HE DEFINED FAITH. HE SAID THE BELIEF THE GOOD DRAWS TO IT THE GOOD. THE BUDDHIST CALL IT KARMA. WE DON'T KNOW, BUT THAT'S WHAT FAITH IS. I THINK I SAW THAT EVIDENCED IN MY WORK OVERSEAS. I WAS IN THE SQUARE FOR THE VELVET REVOLUTION. I WAS IN THE MAGIC LANTERN THEATER. HALF A MILLION CHECKS, SNOWING, A GREAT SINGER COMES OUT ON THE BALCONY AND HAD SUNG THE PRAYER FOR MARTA WHEN THE SOVIETS OVERTHREW THE REGIME SHE WAS BANNED FROM THE AIRWAVES AND WORKED IN THE INTERVENING YEARS SHE SAYING A PRAYER FOR MARTA AND EVERYONE KNEW EVERY WORD. THAT IS POWERFUL.  

PS:   YOU ALONG SOME OF YOUR STUDENTS WORK. BUT DID YOU BRING?

CH:   I'M GOING TO READ TWO POEMS. ONE OF THE POEMS -- I -- THEY DON'T HAVE A COLLEGE PROGRAM AND THE SUPER MAX PRISON, SO I TEACH NONCREDIT COURSES. THEY GET SIX PROFESSORS TO GO IN AND TEACH SUMMER COURSES I RECRUITED MY WIFE, WHO'S A GRADUATE OF JULLIARD AND MY SON WHO IS A GRADUATE STUDENT AT COLUMBIA. IT WAS A FAMILY AFFAIR. THIS IS A POEM AND IT'S ABOUT WAKING UP IN FIFTH GRADE TO FIND OUT HIS MOTHER ABANDONED HIM AND HIS SIBLINGS. I AWAKEN ON MY OWN, STRANGE. MOMMY -- MY THREE BROTHERS AND BABY SISTER, BUT NOT TODAY. TODAY, I AWAKE ON MY OWN. WHY? WHERE'S MOMMY? I'M THE ONLY ONE AWAKE. FIVE CHILDREN, ONE PULLOUT BED IN THE LIVING ROOM. WHERE'S MOMMY? I WALKED TOWARD THE BATHROOM. COLD WOODEN FLOOR SQUEAKING WITH EVERY STEP. NOBODY. NOBODY IS IN THERE. WHERE'S MOMMY? SHE'S GOT TO BE IN THE ROOM. MUST BE. NO PLACE ELSE SHE COULD BE. NO ONE. NOTHING BUT EMPTY YOUR BOTTLES AND CIGARETTE BUTZ. PARTY TIME IS OVER. BUT WHERE'S MOMMY? GONE. NOT ONLY IS SHE GONE, BUT WHERE? GONE IS THE SECURITY. GONE IS MY INNOCENCE. GONE IS MY CHILDHOOD. USHERING IN RESPONSIBILITY PREMATURELY. GONE IS A MOTHER'S LOVE FOR HER CHILDREN. GONE IS THE PROTECTION. GONE, BUT WHERE? WILL SHE COME BACK? I DON'T KNOW. BUT IF SHE EVER DOES, I WILL HAVE ALREADY BEEN GONE. I HAD JUST GOT MY PAPERS ON GULAGS ARCHIPELAGO. I KNOW SOME ARE WATCHING. ONE OF MY REMARKABLE STUDENTS, FRANCISCO WILLS, SNUCK IN A BUNCH OF POEMS HE WROTE AND THIS IS JUST ONE OF THEM. IT'S CALLED EMERGENCY. BEFORE THE SOURCE OF WORDS DROWNED IN A SEA OF STONES AND FORGETFULNESS AND LIFE SO EASILY THREATENED BY THE VERTIGO OF NARROW CORRIDORS, FIND LESS MOTHERS THE FLAME, I MUST WRITE. SEARCHING FOR IMAGES AND TRYING TO FIT MY HEAD THROUGH BARS JUST TO GET STUCK LIKE A CHILD PLAYING ON A VERANDA. THESE BARS ARE WRAPPED IN RAZOR WIRE AND WRITING IS NOT A CHILD'S GAME. 

PS:   CHRIS HEDGES IS OUR GUEST. THIS IS HIS SECOND APPEARANCE ON "IN-DEPTH." IT WAS IT OUT -- IT WAS 11 YEARS AGO SINCE HIS LAST APPEARANCE. SINCE THEN, HE HAS WRITTEN SIX BOOKS. NOW IT IS YOUR TURN TO CALL IN, TALK TO HIM AND ASK QUESTIONS. THE NUMBERS ARE ON THE SCREEN DIVIDED BY GEOGRAPHICAL DIVISION. YOU CAN ALSO SEND IN A TEXT. PLEASE INCLUDE YOUR FIRST NAME AND CITY, IF YOU WOULD DO SO. JUST A MEMBER AT BOOK TV IS OUR HANDLE. BEFORE WE GO TO CALLS, DESCRIBE THE COVER OF "OUR CLASS" AND THE NAMES WRITTEN ON THE PENCILS. 

CH:   THIS IS BY THE GREAT PUT A GOAL CARTOONIST, DUANE BOOTH, KNOWN AS THE FISH. IT'S THE PENCILS WITH THE NAMES OF GREAT WRITERS. THE NEW JIM CROW IS A BOOK I ADMIRE VERY MUCH. BARAKA, MAYOR WILSON, AND BALDWIN. THEY ARE ALL WRITERS THE STUDENTS ARE FAMILIAR WITH. IT'S A BRILLIANT PIECE. HE DID DISCOVER, TOO.

PS:   WHICH IS YOUR MOST RECENT BOOK, WHICH JUST CAME OUT THIS YEAR. LAST YEAR, I GUESS I SHOULD SAY. WE WILL TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT LATER IN THE PROGRAM. LET'S HEAR FROM MICHAEL IN BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA. YOU ARE ON WITH AUTHOR CHRIS HEDGES.  

Caller:   HELLO, MR. HEDGES. YOUR WORK SPANS SO MUCH -- ON THE HUMAN CONDITION, YOU DESCRIBE A GENERAL SENSE OF IMBALANCE AND I WONDER IF YOU HAVE HEARD OF DR. SAPOLSKY OF STANFORD OR A DOCTOR WHO DEVELOPED DUAL BRAIN PSYCHOLOGY. I THINK HE COULD HELP YOU WITH YOUR WORK IN THE PRISONS AS WELL. CULTURE IS BIOLOGY AND BIOLOGY IS CULTURE. THIS EXTERNAL CONDITION IS A PROJECTION OF AN INTERNAL DICHOTOMY BETWEEN SELF-INTEREST AND GROUP INTEREST. YOU BRING THIS UP IN YOUR BOOKS QUITE A BIT AND WHAT I MEAN BY SELF-INTEREST AND GROUP INTEREST IS IT'S A CONSTANT BATTLE FOR BLOOD WITHIN OUR BRAINS DEAD WITHIN OUR CULTURE. IF YOU ARE COMPLETELY FOCUSED ON SELF INTEREST, YOU EAT OTHER PEOPLES CHILDREN WHEN YOU ARE HUNGRY. IF YOU ARE FOCUSED ON GROUP INTERESTS, YOU HELP OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN AND STARVED TO DEATH.   

CH:   I DON'T I DON'T KNOW THOSE AUTHORS. I WILL LOOK AT THEM. I'M ACTUALLY READING MIKE DAVIS'S BOOK I DON'T KNOW THOSE AUTHORS. I WILL LOOK AT THEM. I'M ACTUALLY READING MIKE DAVIS'S BOOK AND I THINK THE POINT IS WELL MADE. HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE FAMINES THAT WENT THROUGH CHINA AND AFRICA AND AND IN INDIA, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DYING OF STARVATION. I THINK THERE ARE SOME GOOD MORALS WRITTEN ABOUT THAT AND SO SHOULD NEESON WOULD BE ANOTHER SO SHOULD NEESON WOULD BE ANOTHER WHERE -- IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT MORAL STANCE AND ….

Caller:   I WAS A FORMER CORRECTION OFFICER IN LOUISIANA AND WAS A FEDERAL INMATE BECAUSE THE FBI SET ME UP. MY QUESTION TO YOU, WORKING WITH THESE INMATES -- I WORKED AT A QUESTION TO YOU, WORKING WITH THESE INMATES -- I WORKED AT A FEDERAL INSTITUTION AND YOU WORKED AT ESTATE INSTITUTION, I'M GOING TO TRY TO GET THAT BOOK, ARE CLASS AND IT SEEMS LIKE YOU LISTEN TO THE INMATES TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS WRONG WITH AND IT SEEMS LIKE YOU LISTEN TO THE INMATES TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THEM. A LOT OF THEM MIGHT HAVE BEEN SEXUALLY ABUSED OR AND IT SEEMS LIKE YOU LISTEN TO THE INMATES TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THEM. A LOT OF THEM MIGHT HAVE BEEN SEXUALLY ABUSED OR PHYSICALLY ABUSE. I STUDIED SOCIOLOGY AND GARY STOKELY WAS MY PROFESSOR AT LOUISIANA TECH. YOU LEARNED TO LISTEN TO THESE INMATES AND THEY RESPONDED WITH LOVE AND AFFECTION. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT ONLINE I WISH YOU COULD GET IT ONLINE. I'VE GOT THE INFORMATION WHERE THETHE FBI LIED AND PUT ME IN PRISON AND PUT A PIECE OF ROPE IN MY FOOD TO GET ME TO PLEAD GUILTY, BUT I'M INNOCENT AND I CAN PROVE IT. ME TO PLEAD GUILTY, BUT I'M INNOCENT AND I CAN PROVE IT.

CH:   SEND IT TO ME AT BOOK TV WITH YOUR EMAIL AND I WILL CONTACT YOU. YOU HAVE TWO LISTEN. WITH ITS OWN LANGUAGE, ITS OWN SET OF RULES, IF YOU DON'T STAND UP FOR DON'T STAND UP FOR YOURSELF, NO ONE IS GOING TO FIGHT FOR YOU. ALTHOUGH PEOPLE MIGHT FIGHT WITH PEOPLE MIGHT FIGHT WITH YOU. THERE IS A CHAPTER IN THIS BOOK PEOPLE MIGHT FIGHT WITH YOU. THERE IS A CHAPTER IN THIS BOOK AND HAVING COVERED WAR, YOU HAVE TO READ PEOPLE WELL IN A WAR ZONE. I CERTAINLY FOUND THAT AMONG MY STUDENTS. STUDENTS. THEY HAVE A REMARKABLE ABILITY TO READ PEOPLE VERY QUICKLY. THAT PROBABLY COMES OFF THE STREETS WHERE THAT QUALITY WAS ESSENTIAL WITHIN THE PRISON ITSELF. THE REPAIR IN ME IS FASCINATED. THE STREETS WHERE THAT QUALITY WAS ESSENTIAL WITHIN THE PRISON ITSELF. THE REPAIR IN ME IS FASCINATED. HAVING LIVED IN COUNTRIES WHERE PEOPLE ARE NOT WHITE, WHETHER IN LATIN AMERICA OR THE MIDDLE EAST , THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA -- I SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN GAZA GAZA, FOR INSTANCE, BUT HOWEVER HARD YOU TRY TO UNDERSTAND, PRIVILEGES A FORM OF BLINDNESS. IT IS OUR JOB FOR PEOPLE SUCH AS MYSELF COMING OUT OF POSITIONS OF PRIVILEGE TO LISTEN AND OUR JOB FOR PEOPLE SUCH AS MYSELF COMING OUT OF POSITIONS OF PRIVILEGE TO LISTEN AND LEARN AS MUCH AS WE CAN BUT ALWAYS TO UNDERSTAND WILL INHIBIT US. SOLZHENITSYN WRITES THAT THERE ARE TWO THINGS -- PRISON AND POVERTY. THINGS -- PRISON AND POVERTY. MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY STUDENTS -- THEY ARE -- TWO HONOR THAT DIVIDE, IF I HONOR THAT DIVIDE WITH RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE ENDURED HORRIFIC OPPRESSION. 

PS:   I IMAGINE PEOPLE IN THE AUDIENCE ROLLED THEIR EYES WHEN THEY SAID CORNELIUS WAS SET UP BY THE FBI. 

CH:   THIS WAS A MURDER -- YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO STUDY PARTICULAR AREAS TO DETERMINE THE TIME OF DEATH TO THE DAY TO THE DAY AND HE WASN'T EVEN IN THE STATE WHEN  ….

CH:   WHAT ABOUT CORNELIUS. WHEN HE SAID HE WAS SET UP BY THE FBI. WHEN FBI. WHEN YOU HEAR THAT, WITH YOUR BOOK AND WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING, DO YOU THEN THERE WERE REPUTEDLY NINE INFORMANTS AND NO POLICE PROTECTION. REPUTEDLY NINE INFORMANTS AND NO POLICE PROTECTION. I DON'T KNOW. I HAVEN'T READ THE CASE. BUT IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE. 

PS:   THE NEXT CALL IS RODNEY FROM BALTIMORE. GOOD AFTERNOON. 

Caller:   THE COVID TEST, EVEN THE INVENTOR SAID HE DID NOT KNOW IF IT HAD -- HE HAD COVID OR NOT. MY QUESTION IS ABOUT THE VACCINE. THE VACCINE IS DESIGNED TO REDUCE SYMPTOMS. THIS IS THE ONLY MRNA APPROVED FOR HUMAN USE. ANTIBODY-DEPENDENT ENHANCEMENT MEANS THAT ONCE YOU GET THE VACCINE, YOU ARE GOING TO BE EXPOSED TO THE VIRUS. BUT THIS COULD POSSIBLY KILL YOU. MOST OF THE DEATHS THAT WE SEE FROM COVID IS PROBABLY FROM THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED. I'M WONDERING IF YOU ARE AWARE OF THAT SITUATION. 

CH:   I AM NOT. I DID GET THE VACCINE, BUT UNLIKE YOU, IT IS THE OLD NEWSPAPER REPORTER. I DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING UNLESS I HAVE LOOKED AT IT IN DEPTH AND REPORTED IT. BUT NOT THAT I KNOW.   

PS:   I AM HAVING A LITTLE BIT OF TROUBLE WITH THIS PHONE. THERE WE GO. KELLY. SALT LAKE CITY. HELLO

Caller:   CHRIS, PLEASE SPEAK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT CYNICISM? DEALING WITH REALITY SO WELL, BUT I JUST DO NOT SEE A LOT OF THAT WITH MOST JOURNALISTS. IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU ACTIVELY WORK AGAINST? OR IS IT PART OF YOUR NORMAL NATURE TO BE NONSENSICAL? 

CH:   I DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF A CYNIC. I'VE BEEN ACCUSED, BUT I AM NOT. I COME OUT THIS AS A FORMER DIVINITY STUDENT. THERE IS THIS UNDERSTANDING OF HUMAN NATURE AND HOW IT WORKS, AND UNDERSTANDING POWER, AND HOW IT WORKS. I THINK THAT THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE DO NOT HAVE A FULL UNDERSTANDING OF POWER OR HUMAN NATURE, THEN WE CAN MAKE RESPONSES THAT ARE BASED ON ILLUSION RATHER THAN REALITY. REALITY CAN OFTEN BE VERY BLEAK. THAT IS TRUE. IN THE WARS THAT I COVER, MY JOB WAS TO MAKE A COLD ASSESSMENT OF LIGHT WEAPON SYSTEMS WERE AT THE END OF THAT ROAD, WHAT THE CHANCES WERE THAT THE SYSTEMS HAD OF TAKING ME OUT, AND RESPONDING. PEOPLE WHO HAD A VERY POLLYANNA-ISH VIEW OF THE WORLD DID NOT LAST LONG. I HAD AN ARMORED CAR. HE USED TO TAUNT THE SNIPERS. HE ACTUALLY SPRAY-PAINTED ON THE SIDE OF HIS CAR AND HE WOULD DRIVE ACROSS THE AIR WORK, WHICH WAS A CONTESTED AREA. IT WAS JUST FOOLISH BRAVADO. SO I DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF A CYNIC. I CONSIDER MYSELF A REALIST. THE PROBLEM WITH CYNICS IS THAT THEY BECOME PASSIVE. BECAUSE THEY ARE CYNICAL, THEY DO NOT RESIST AND THEY BECOME COMPLICIT. 

PS:   IT HAS BEEN 11 YEARS SINCE HE HAS BEEN AT THIS TABLE AND HE HAS HOSTED A NUMBER OF PROGRAMS. BUT I WANT TO READ A QUOTE FROM YOUR MOST RECENT BOOK. MY PUBLIC ENUNCIATION OF THE INVASION OF UKRAINE WAS TREATED VERY DIFFERENTLY IRT AMERICA THAN MY PUBLIC DENUNCIATION OF THE IRAQ WAR AS TREATED BY MY FORMER EMPLOYER. 

CH:   AFTER I DENOUNCED RUSSIA'S INVASION OF UKRAINE, ALREADY CLOSED DOWN. BUT DURING THOSE SIX DAYS, THEY DID NOT SAY ANYTHING. THE NEW YORK TIMES DID NOT RESPOND WELL. TO MY CALLS OR MY CRITIQUE. PEOPLE FORGET THAT THERE WAS NO DAYLIGHT ON THIS. THEY COOK UP THIS CAUSE I INTELLIGENCE GROUP BUT I WAS BOOT OFF OF A STAGE FOR DENOUNCING THE WAR SHORTLY AFTER THE INVASION, THEN THE RIGHT WING MEDIA PICKS THAT. DEDICATING FOUR DAYS, DENOUNCING ME AS A LEFT-WING PACIFIST. AND THE TIMES HAND WAS FORCED. I HAD BEEN THERE FOR 15 YEARS. AND I WAS GIVEN A FORMAL WRITTEN REPRIMAND. IT WAS IN WRITING. I WAS NO LONGER ALLOWED TO SPEAK ABOUT THE WAR AT THAT POINT. I WAS NOT SILENT AND I LEFT THE PAPER. 

PS:   THIS IS FROM SHeer POST. WHAT IS THAT?

CH:   THAT IS FROM BOB Sheer (he) USED TO RUN Truthdig FOR 16 YEARS UNTIL THE PUBLISHER DECIDED TO FIRE HIM AND THEN I ORGANIZED ALL OF US TO GO ON STRIKE. [LAUGHTER] ONE MANAGEMENT HEADACHE AFTER ANOTHER. SO HE STARTED SHARE POST AND I AM ON SUB STACK. THAT IS A SUBSCRIBER SERVICE, WHICH IS GREAT. PEOPLE PAY ABOUT SIX DOLLARS A MONTH OR SOMETHING. BUT, WHAT IT DOES IS -- I DO NOT OBVIOUSLY CHARGE FOR MY STORIES. THIS WEEKLY PROGRAM WITH A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF AMASH TO BRIAN THAN, WHO, I LOVED HIS WEEKLY SHOW ON BOOK NOTES. BECAUSE EVENT THE BOOKS. LIKE YOU DO. SO, IT FUNDS THAT, BUT SHeer POST IS WHAT BOB SET UP. HE IS LEGENDARY.  (CH noted about here that Sheer had been the editor of the famous Ramparts Magazine and that he was probably funding Sheer Post from his Social Security checks) 

CH:   AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU VOTE AT THE END OF LAST YEAR. THE DEMOCRATS BECAME NOT ONLY FOR CORPORATE AMERICA BUT FOR THE WEAPONS MANUFACTURERS. NO WEAPON SYSTEM IS TOO COSTLY. NO WAR, NO MATTER HOW DISASTROUS GOES UNFUNDED. AN INCREASE OF $5 BILLION ABOVE, OFF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION. 

THIS IS INSANITY. THE DEATH OF EMPIRES AND UNCHECKED MILITARIES. MEANWHILE, THE COUNTRY IS BEING DISEMBOWELED. THE DEMOCRATS DECIDED THAT THEY WOULD TAKE CORPORATE MONEY. THEY PUSHED AND ABOLISHED WELFARE AND THEY DEREGULATED THE SEC AND CONSOLIDATED INTO A HALF DOZEN HUGE CORPORATIONS. THEY DESTROYED THE FIREWALL BETWEEN INVESTMENT AND COMMERCIAL BANKS. THEY DID NOT HAVE A BANKING CRISIS FOR 2008 BECAUSE THEY DID NOT TEAR DOWN THAT WALL. NAFTA WAS THE GREATEST TRAIL OF THE AMERICAN WORKING CLASS. THEY GOT FUNDRAISING PARITY WITH THE REPUBLICAN, WE BECAME ONE CORPORATE DUOPOLY. THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, IS THE PROBLEM. ON CERTAIN ISSUES, THE DEMOCRATS TEND TO BE LIBERAL. ON MAJOR ISSUES LIKE WHOLESALE SURVEILLANCE, THE NEW YORK ABOUT THE LARGEST MILITARY BUDGET SINCE WORLD WAR II. THIS WHOLE WITHIN UKRAINE, I THINK ALL TOLD IT IS ABOUT $100 BILLION, AND WHAT IS THE GOAL? IT IS QUITE CLEARLY TO DEGRADE RUSSIAN MILITARY AND POTENTIALLY OVERTHROW VLADIMIR PUTIN. IT IS A VERY CYNICAL POLICY, AS ALL PROXY WARS ARE. THE DEMOCRATS ARE FULL PARTNERS, AS THEY HAVE BEEN FOR A LONG TIME. THEY ARE UNACCOUNTABLE. ANYBODY WHO HAS LOOKED AT PAST EMPIRES, THE GERMAN EMPIRE, ANYTHING ELSE WILL RECOGNIZE. I HAVE STUDIED CLASSICS AT HARVARD, SAME WITH THE ROMAN EMPIRE. AT THE END, THERE IS MALNUTRITION AND HUNGER IN THE STREETS OF ROME AND YOU HAVE THIS ELITE, AND THEN YOU HAVE THE ONE MILLION MEN OF MEN. THE ELITE WITHIN THE MILITARY AUCTIONING OFF TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER. WE ARE FOLLOWING THAT TRAJECTORY. THAT IS WHAT IS SO DANGEROUS. THERE IS MORE OPPOSITION AND OF COURSE, $1.7 TRILLION SPENDING THE WAS REPUBLICAN. I THINK -- 

PS:   WHAT IS THE SOLUTION TO THE SOLUTION TO UKRAINE AND RUSSIA? DO WE HAVE A ROLE?

CH:   I THINK KISSINGER IS RIGHT. THE NEW YORK TIMES WROTE AN EDITORIAL SAYING, THIS IDEA THAT THE EASTERN PART OF UKRAINE IS GOING TO BE PART OF UKRAINE GIVEN WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS A FANTASY. I CANNOT REMEMBER THE EXACT WORD THAT THEY USED, BUT THERE WILL HAVE TO BE NEGOTIATIONS. THE LONGER THIS GOES ON, THE MORE DANGEROUS IT BECOMES. NOW WE ARE ABOUT TO SEND MISSILES. THERE HAVE BEEN STRIKES DEEP INSIDE RUSSIA AND VLADIMIR PUTIN FEELS CORNERED. WE DO NOT WANT VLADIMIR PUTIN TO BE HUMILIATED AND CORNERED. THERE WILL BE A NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT, BUT THE LONGER IT GOES ON, THE MORE VOLATILE AND UNSTABLE IT BECOMES. THE MORE UKRAINE IS DESTROYED. HAVING BEEN IN WAR, IT IS UKRAINIAN BLOOD. I DO NOT WANT TO MINIMIZE THE SUFFERING OF UKRAINIANS, BUT I DO THINK THAT THE POLICY OUT OF WASHINGTON, LESS AND LESS OUT OF EUROPE BECAUSE EUROPE IS PAYING THE PRICE FOR THIS. ENERGY BILLS IN THE U.K. WERE UP AND INFLATION IS RIPPING APART. I THINK, LIKE THE 20 YEAR DEBACLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THE ARCHITECTS HAVE NOT REALLY THOUGHT OUT VERY WELL. AND THAT IS DANGEROUS. 

PS:   YOU ARE ON WITH CHRIS HEDGES. ARE YOU WITH US? I THINK HE IS GONE. LET'S TRY BONNIE. I'M HAVING A LITTLE TROUBLE WITH THE PHONES. IF I COULD GET A LITTLE BIT OF HELP. LET'S TRY LINE FIVE IN KENILWORTH, NEW JERSEY. BONNIE, ARE YOU WITH US? 

Caller:   YES. IT IS A JOY TO LISTEN TO THE PROGRAM. I WOULD LIKE TO PIVOT BACK TO WHAT MANY PEOPLE I WORK WITH, I BEAR WITNESS TO AN ADVOCATE. THEY CALL THIS THE WAR AT HOME. THEY CALL MASS IMPRISONMENT THE WAR AT HOME. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR SOME OF YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE CAUSES OF THIS WAR AT HOME AND THE CONDITIONS AND ALTERNATIVES TO THE MASS IMPRISONMENT THAT WE ARE SEEING. I THINK YOU SPEAK WELL OF THE LOSS TO SOCIETY, OF THE MASS IMPRISONMENT, THE TALENT THAT LIES BEHIND THE WALLS, THE CREATIVITY THAT LIES BEHIND  WALLS. I WOULD LOVE YOUR THOUGHTS. 

PS:    THANK YOU, BONNIE. CHRIS HEDGES. 

CH:   IT IS, INDEED, A WAR AT HOME. WE HAVE INDUSTRIALIZE THESE URBAN POCKETS AND FORCE PEOPLE INTO AN ILLEGAL ECONOMY IN ORDER TO MAKE A LIVING. MILITARIZED POLICE FORCES TO MAINTAIN CONTROL. OF ALL PEOPLE, JOHN PAUL II WROTE A VERY IMPRESSIVE -- ON THE PRINCIPLE OF WORK AND ITS ROLE WITHIN SOCIETY, AND BY DENYING MEANINGFUL WORK TO PEOPLE IS AGAINST RELIGIOUS TEACHING. SO, THE WAR ON HOME IS QUITE VISCERAL. WE HAVE 25% OF THE WORLD'S PRISON POPULATION, AND AS I MENTIONED BEFORE LESS THAN 5% OF THE WORLD POPULATION, 40% WITHIN THE SYSTEM ARE THERE FOR NONVIOLENT CRIMES. THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN CHARGED WITH PHYSICALLY HARMING ANOTHER PERSON. IT IS DONE AS A FORM OF SOCIALIST -- SOCIAL CONTROL AND REMOVES MEN AND BOYS FROM THE STREETS OF THE CITIES, BUT WHEN THEY GET OUT, BECAUSE OF PAROLE, THEY ARE THROWN INTO THIS CRIMINAL CASTE SYSTEM, WHERE THEY CANNOT GET WORK AND ARE DENIED PUBLIC ASSISTANCE AND HOUSING. ONE OF MY WONDERFUL STUDENTS DURING THE COVID CRISIS GOT A JOB IN WHOLE FOODS, IN NEWARK. THE BACKGROUND CHECK CAME LATE. THEY SAW THAT HE HAD BEEN IN PRISON AND THEY FIRED HIM. HE WAS A MODEL EMPLOYEE. HE WAS THERE AT 6:00 IN THE MORNING. I HAD VISITED HIM AND HE WAS VERY PROUD OF HIS WHITE JACKET. I WENT TO THE MANAGER AND I MIGHT AS WELL HAVE BEEN TALKING TO A STONE WALL. EVERYTHING IS CONSPIRED AGAINST THESE PEOPLE. 76% IS THE CORRECT FEAR WITHIN A FEW YEARS. SO WE HAVE CRIMINALIZED POVERTY IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED. IF YOU ARE A POOR PERSON OF COLOR, THERE IS ALMOST NO WAY OUT. IT IS SO MOVING FOR THOSE WHO TEACH WITHIN THE SYSTEM, THE LEVEL OF TALENT AND INTEGRITY. THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT THERE CRIMES. I HAVE SEEN TRANSFORMATION AND REDEMPTION. 11 OF MY STUDENTS HAVE GRADUATED, ALL WITH COLLEGE DEGREES FROM RIKERS. THEY ARE WORKING IN THE INDUSTRIAL AREAS. AND AS MIKE, ONE OF THE LEADERS TOLD ME, THESE ARE THE MODEL COMMUNITY ORGANIZERS. THEY COME OUT OF POOR NEIGHBORHOODS AND THEY ARE LARGELY BLACK. THEY HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE PRISON SYSTEM. THEY ARE BRILLIANT. CANNOT PEOPLE THAT YOU MESS WITH. THEY ARE VERY EFFECTIVE IN WHAT THEY DO. SO MANY OF MY STUDENTS GET OUT -- NO MATTER HOW GREAT THEY ARE OR HOW WELL EDUCATED, IT IS VERY HARD TO BREAK OUT OF THAT CRIMINAL CASTE SYSTEM. 

PS:    WHAT IS KABIR DOING TODAY AND DID HE HAVE ANY CHANCE OF GETTING BACK INTO WHOLE FOODS? 

CH:   NO. THEY WOULD NOT TAKE HIM. HE IS STRUGGLING. KABIR DID NOT HAVE FAMILY SUPPORT. HE WAS IN A HOMELESS SHELTER. HE GOT SEASONAL WORK FOR CHRISTMAS, BUT IT WAS IN PENNSYLVANIA. THIS IS THE OTHER THING. YOU LIVE ECONOMICALLY AT SUCH A PRECARIOUS LEVEL THAT IF ONE THING GOES WRONG, YOU LOSE YOUR JOB. YOU CANNOT PAY YOUR RENT. IT IS JUST A CASCADING EVENT OF DISASTER IS. THAT CREATES TREMENDOUS ANXIETY AND STRESS. KABIR IS STRUGGLING. AND THROUGH NO FAULT OF HIS OWN. 

PS:    RAY, YOU ARE ON WITH AUTHOR CHRIS HEDGES. 

Caller:   THANK YOU FOR TAKING MY CALL. MR. HEDGES, HOW ARE YOU THIS AFTERNOON.

CH:   GOOD, THANK YOU. 

Caller:   TWICE I HAVE HEARD YOU USE THE PHRASE OR TERM. I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD PROVIDE AN EXPLANATION OR DEFINITION OF THAT TERM, CULT OF SELF AND IF THAT WOULD APPLY TO SOMEONE LIKE ME. I AM A PAYING MEMBER OF THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY, BUT I PUT MAXIMUM EFFORT INTO THE PURSUIT OF TRUTH.

CH:   I AM NOT A LIBERTARIAN, ALTHOUGH IT IS INTERESTING. LIBERTARIANS ARE GREAT. IN 2012, I SUED PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA OVER SECTION 10 OF THE DEFENSE ACT. IT PROHIBITS THE GOVERNMENT FROM USING MILITARY AS A DOMESTIC POLICE FORCE. THERE WERE AMICUS BRIEFS CARRIED OUT. SO, NO. I THINK IT IS MORE DRIVEN BY CELEBRITY CULTURE AND SOCIAL MEDIA, WHERE SOCIAL MEDIA CAN CREATE A MINI VERSION OF THE KARDASHIANS FOR WHOEVER IS WANTING TO WATCH IT. THAT IS WHAT I AM REFERRING TO WHEN I SAY CULT OF THE SELF. EVERYTHING IS CENTERED AROUND MYSELF AT THE EXPENSE OF EVERYONE ELSE, BUT ALSO AT THE EXPENSE OF SELF-CRITICISM. I THINK THAT IS A SOCIETAL DISEASE.  

PS:    WHAT IS THE FORMAT OF UNSPEAKABLE? HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT? 

CH:    DESPISE DAVID TELL IT, WHO FOUNDED SO ON. HE CAME AND DID MANY HOURS OF INTERVIEWING ME FOR THIS BOOK. BUT BEFORE I WENT ON THE AIR, I SAID THAT THE QUALITY OF AN INTERVIEW DEPENDS ON THE INTERVIEWER. AND HE JUST ASKED A LOT OF SMART QUESTIONS, I THOUGHT. SO THAT WAS THE BOOK. HE WAS SMART TO PICK UP ON CERTAIN THINGS THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE NOT ALWAYS PICKED UP ON. I THINK THE RELIGIOUS. I DO NOT WEAR IT ON MY SLEEVE, BUT I REMAIN GROUNDED IN THAT CHRISTIAN REALISM AND SOCIAL GOSPEL. I WROTE MY THESIS AS A CRITIQUE. I DO NOT EMBRACE VIOLENCE AS A FORM OF SOCIAL CHANGE. I SAW ENOUGH OF IT TO KNOW THAT VIOLENCE BUILDS NOTHING AND CREATES NOTHING. IT ONLY DESTROYS. NOT ONLY DOES IT DESTROY -- BUT I THINK HE BROUGHT A LOT OF THAT STUFF OUT. 

PS:   AT THE SAME TIME, YOU DESCRIBE KARL MARX AS A BRILLIANT SCHOLAR. 

CH:  IN TERMS OF A CRITIQUE OF CAPITALISM, I THINK KARL MARX IS ESSENTIAL. I THINK KARL MARX'S SOLUTION IS UTOPIAN, TO STEAL THE WORD FROM THOMAS MOORE, WHICH IN ITS ORIGINAL DEFINITION MEANS NO PLACE. I AM NOT A MARXIST COME IN TERMS OF THE WITHERING AWAY OF THE STATE. HE HOLDS UP THE PROLETARIAT. I JUST -- IN THAT SENSE, I THINK WE HAD TO READ KARL MARX. OF COURSE, HE WAS DRAWING ON FREDERICK ENGELS. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CALCULATOR, IF YOU WANT TO READ KARL MARX RIGHT. THEY UNDERSTOOD THE PREDATORY NATURE OF CAPITALISM, THAT CAPITALISTS ARE ABOUT REDUCING THE COST OF PRODUCTION. IN SOME WAYS, I WOULD ONLY HIRE MARXISTS. THAT IS IT. WITHOUT RESTRAINT, THEY WILL DEFORM YOUR SOCIETY, WHICH IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED. THAT IS WHAT CAPITALISTS DO AND THAT IS WHAT CAPITALISM HAS TO BE. I THINK PEOPLE ARE OFTEN DRIVEN BY MOTIVES OF WEALTH AND SELF-ADVANCEMENT, BUT IT HAS TO BE REGULATED TO CONTROL. YOU DO NOT WANT THEM TO TAKE OVER YOUR SOCIETY INTO A PREDATORY ENTERPRISE. PRIVATE FIRMS BUYING UTILITIES AND JACKING UP THE RACES OF HEALTH CARE. WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE IT IS LEGAL FOR CORPORATIONS TO BANKRUPT PARENTS WHILE THEY ARE TRYING TO SAVE THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS WHO ARE SICK. THIS IS INEXCUSABLE. SO I ACCEPT THE KIND OF -- IT COMES FROM THAT DARKSIDE OF HUMAN NATURE. ONCE IT IS RECOGNIZED, IT HAS TO BE MONITORED AND CONTROLLED. 

Caller:   TOM, WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT, IF YOU HAVE ONE ON THE NEW ATHEISM AND ITS PROPONENTS? ARE THERE CRITICISMS RELEVANT?

CH:   I VOTE A BOOK ON IT. THE HARDCOVER WAS MAYBE A LITTLE BIT TOO CUTE. I DO NOT LIKE THE NEW ONE. I DID NOT PAY ATTENTION UNTIL I DEBATED IN BERKELEY. WHAT WAS THE OTHER BIG AVS THAT I DELETED? CARRIES. THAT WAS AT UCLA. AND I WAS KIND OF STUNNED. WHY DIDN'T ANYBODY TAKE THESE PEOPLE ON? I FIND A BINARY VIEW OF THE WORLD, POLITICAL, THEY EMBRACE THE POLITICS OF THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUBSTITUTED THE GLORIES OF QUOTE ON QUOTE WESTERN CIVILIZATION FOR GOD, INSTEAD OF MUSLIMS BEING SATANIC, THEY ARE BARBARIANS. IT FITS THAT KIND OF VIEW OF THE WORLD. NOAM CHOMSKY CALLED THEM FUNDAMENTALISTS FOR THE STATE OF RELIGION. I THINK THAT IS KIND OF RIGHT. SO I VOTE A BOOK ABOUT IT. JOE SAYS MY NEXT SHOULD BE ABOUT THEOLOGIANS THAT I LIKE. [LAUGHTER] IT IS LONDON REVIEW OF BOOKS CALLED IT THE BEST. SO THAT KIND OF LAYS OUT -- IT IS NOT A VERY LONG BUT I VOTE IT AFTER DOING THOSE DEBATES BECAUSE I HAD TO READ HARRIS AND DAWKINS, AND THE OTHERS. I HAD NOT PAID CLOSE ATTENTION TO THEM BEFORE. 

PS:   MARINE, YOU ARE ON WITH CHRIS HEDGES.

Caller:   I WAS WONDERING -- I LOVE THAT YOU MENTIONED NOAM CHOMSKY. I HOPE THAT YOU INTERVIEW HIM AGAIN SOON, BUT I WONDERED IF YOU CAUGHT THE SPEECH (by Volodomyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine) TO CONGRESS RECENTLY AND HOW IT SEEMS THAT IT WAS ACTUALLY WRITTEN BY U.S. OFFICIALS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, MILITARY OR STATE DEPARTMENT. 

CH:   I DO NOT KNOW THAT FOR A FACT, BUT I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED. I COVERED NICARAGUA DURING THE RUN FOR THE PRESIDENCY. I KNOW THEY WERE HELPING TO WRITE SPEECHES. SO I HAVE NO EVIDENCE THAT IS THE CASE. BUT I WOULD SAY PROBABLY. AT LEAST, THEY READ IT BEFORE HE DELIVERED. 

PS:   ANTON IN NEW JERSEY. HELLO. 

Caller:   HELLO. I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR ALL THE WONDERFUL WORK THAT YOU ARE DOING IN SHARING THE LIBERATION THEOLOGY AND LIBERATION WORK THAT YOU AND WEST BROUGHT INTO US IS MONUMENTAL IN SHAPING THE WORK THAT YOUR STUDENTS AND MYSELF ARE CURRENTLY DOING IN THE WORLD TODAY. WE THANK YOU, WE LOVE YOU, AND THANK YOU FOR NOT GIVING UP ON US. THANK YOU FOR BELIEVING IN US AND THE DARKEST CASES AND THE DARKEST TIME IN OUR LIFE. 

PS:   BEFORE WE GO, YOU HAVE TO TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOURSELF. 

Caller:   MY NAME IS ANTON AND I SERVED 30% OF MY SENTENCE. I MET CHRIS DURING THE INSTEP PROGRAM. I AM CURRENTLY A GRADUATE STUDENT AT CAMDEN, WORKING ON MY MASTERS IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE, LIKE MOST OF HIS STUDENTS, I GRADUATED CUM LAUDE. I ALSO GRADUATED WITH HONORS FROM COMMUNITY COLLEGE WITH A DEGREE IN THE ARTS. MY PROFESSOR WAS GREATLY INFLUENTIAL IN SHAPING HOW WE DID. STILL REAPING THE BENEFITS IT WAS HARD AND TOUGH, BUT IT IS WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW. WE ARE MANIFESTING A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT YOU TAUGHT US. I CURRENTLY WORK. I HAVE A FOR-PROFIT BUSINESS THAT HELPS FORMALLY INCARCERATED MEN AND WOMEN COMING HOME UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE PROFIT -- WHAT IS THE PROCESS OF COMING OUT AND WHAT IS NEEDED. WE HAVE -- WE WORK ALL OVER THE STATE. WE WELCOME PEOPLE HOME. WE JUST WELCOMED OUR BROTHER HOME, ONE OF THE STUDENTS LIKE ME. THIS WAS AFTER YEARS OF TIME FOR A CRIME HE DID NOT COMMIT. I HAVE ONLY BEEN HOME FOR FOUR YEARS, BUT WE HAVE NOT STOPPED WORKING. IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE EDUCATION TO OPEN UP OUR MIND AND OUR LIVES TO NOT ACCEPT THE CURRENT CONDITIONS OF POVERTY AND HOW TO TRANSCEND AND TRANSFORM. 

PS:   ANTON, WHAT WAS THE PROCESS FOR YOU, APPLYING TO THIS CLASS? 

CH:   LET ME INTERJECT BECAUSE THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A COLLEGE PROGRAM WITHOUT HIM. 

Caller:    I AM ONE OF THE FOUNDING MEMBERS. WHEN I FIRST WENT TO PRISON, THE PELL GRANTS ENDED BY THE TIME I GOT MY GED. AND WE FOUGHT FOR 28 YEARS TO GET HIGHER EDUCATION BACK. THAT IS WHEN WE MET CHRIS HEDGES. IT WAS A LONG BATTLE. I PRESENTED THE WHITE PAPER TO THEM. IT WENT IN AS IS. IT WAS NOT FUNDED, BUT THEN WE GOT OUR COMMUNITY ORGANIZERS ON THE GROUND AND GOT FUNDING. FROM 2012 UNTIL NOW, WE HAVE MADE A BIG IMPACT IN NEW JERSEY, NOT ONLY BRINGING PEOPLE HOME AND KEEPING THEM HOME, BUT EDUCATING THE WHOLE PERSON ON WHAT IS NEEDED TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN YOUR LIFE AND YOUR COMMUNITY, PRETTY MUCH IN THE WORLD. 

PS:  THANK YOU, SIR. 

CH:   THEY NOT ONLY GET THEIR COLLEGE DEGREE, BUT VERY FEW OF US COULD GO THROUGH WHAT THEY WENT THROUGH. IMAGINE EARNING A COLLEGE DEGREE, MUCH LESS SUMO CUM LAUDE.

PS:  HE SAID 90 -- HE SAID HE HAD BEEN IN FOR 10 YEARS. 

CH:   THESE SENTENCES ARE LONG. THESE ARE JUST TWO POLITICAL APPOINTEES WHO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT YOU CAN GO BEFORE THE PAROLE BOARD. THEY SAY, NO, YOU CANNOT EVEN MEET WITH THE PAROLE BOARD. AND IF YOU DO MEET WITH THEM, ONE OF THE REASONS JEAN SPENT 30 YEARS IN PRISON IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO EXPRESS REMORSE FOR THE CRIME AS A CONDITION FOR RELEASE AND HE SAID I WILL NOT EXPRESS REMORSE FOR A CRIME I DID NOT COMMIT, SAID HE DECIDED THAT HIS INTEGRITY WAS MORE IMPORTANT AND HE WOULD DIE IN PRISON RATHER THAN TAKE -- THEN TO CONFESS TO A CRIME TO DID NOT COMMIT. IT WAS ONLY WHEN THERE WAS AN INTERVENTION FOR PAROLE. THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO EXPRESS REMORSE, BUT HE WAS PREPARED TO DIE IN PRISON. 

PS:   GRAND JUNCTION CALLER: -- GRAND JUNCTION, COLORADO. GO AHEAD. 

Caller:  I TEACH ENGLISH AND PRIMARILY DRAMA. I HAVE WORKED ALL OVER THE WORLD. I REALLY ENJOYED SOME OF YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT TEACHING AND THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. ONE OF MY JOBS WAS WITH JOB CORPS. I TAUGHT AT A CENTER IN COLORADO FOR A HIGH SCHOOL PROGRAM THAT WAS COORDINATED. WE ACTUALLY GAVE OUT REAL, HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMAS. I DID THAT FOR FIVE YEARS. TEACHING THOSE KIDS WHO ARE NOT BEEN IN PRISON OR JAIL BUT HAD FALLEN THROUGH THE CRACKS. THEY WERE AT RISK STUDENTS, GENERALLY SPEAKING. THEY CAME FROM DISADVANTAGED BACKGROUNDS AND URBAN SETTINGS, PRIMARILY. THE CENTER WAS FAIRLY REMOTE. THE YEARS TEACHING THERE, I DISCOVERED HOW SIMILAR THE TALENTS WERE WITH THESE KIDS THAT I WAS TEACHING. THEY CAME FROM THESE DISADVANTAGED BACKGROUNDS COMPARED TO THE KIDS THAT I TAUGHT INTERNATIONALLY. THEY HAD HIGHLY LITERATE BACKGROUNDS, BUT THEY HAD SIMILAR TALENTS AND THEY DEMONSTRATE THOSE THINGS. I WAS FASCINATED WITH THE IDEA OF WHERE THAT CAME FROM. IT IS SOMETHING THAT I AM NOT REALLY BEEN ABLE TO EXECUTE. BY PART OF OUR JOB AS TEACHERS IS TO BETTER IDENTIFY WHAT THE KNOWLEDGE IS THAT EXISTS IN THAT STUDENT. BUT THEY HAD A. WHEN THEY DO SOME THING, THEY HAVE -- THEY DO HAVE YOU OBSERVED THAT? 

PS:   VINCENT, WE ARE GOING TO LEAVE IT THERE. 

CH:   THAT IS A VERY GOOD POINT. THERE ARE INTELLECTUALS WITHIN EVERY SOCIETY, BUT WHEN YOU ARE POOR, YOU GET, AT BEST, ONE CHANCE. I SAW THAT MY OWN FAMILY AND MY GRANDFATHER WAS A VERY GIFTED STUDENT. HIS SISTER'S BROTHER DIED AND HE HAD TO DROP OUT OF SCHOOL AND RUN THE FARM BECAUSE SHE HAD KIDS. AND THAT WAS THE END OF HIS EDUCATION. I THINK I SEE THAT IN MY STUDENTS. BECAUSE THEY COME OUT OPPRESSED SOCIETIES OR OPPRESSED CONDITIONS, THEY HAVE A MORE ACUTE UNDERSTANDING OF CAPITALISM, WHITE SUPREMACY, SOCIAL CONTROL, THAT I FIND OFTEN WHEN I TEACH AT SCHOOLS LIKE COLUMBIA, PRINCETON, OR NYU. THAT IS PRIVILEGED AS A FORM OF BLINDNESS. THEY TALK ABOUT THE TALENTED 10TH, AND I HAD JUST GIVEN A SERMON AT A VERY WEALTHY, SUBURBAN CHURCH IN NEW JERSEY. THEY STARTED WALKING OUT WHEN I SAID THAT WE HAD DECAPITATED AND KILLED FAR MORE PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN, THROUGH OUR AERIAL DRONES AND EVERYTHING ELSE. LATER THEY BACKED AWAY FROM THIS, BUT I SAID, THEY ARE THE TALENTED 10TH. I'M SURE THEY HAD UNIVERSITY DEGREES OR HIGHER. THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION, BECAUSE OF THE OPPRESSED COMMUNITY BEGINS AT A MUCH HIGHER LEVEL THAN IT DOES WITHIN ELITE INSTITUTIONS WHERE PEOPLE ARE YEARNING TO BE PART OF 1%. THIS IS THE TRAGEDY THAT I SAW WITHIN MY OWN FAMILY. I HAD A SCHOLARSHIP TO A UNIQUE BOARDING SCHOOL WHERE THEY ARE GIVEN CHANCE AFTER CHANCE AND WOULD GO BACK TO MAIN AND SEE, AS YOU POINTED OUT, THAT KIND OF INTELLIGENCE, WHICH WAS NOT ALLOWED TO FLOURISH. THAT IS WHY I AM SO DEDICATED 

CH:   THAT IS WHY I AM SO DEDICATED. 

Caller:     I AM CURIOUS ABOUT YOUR CLAIM THAT YOU ARE NOT A PACIFIST. I WOULD GUESS THAT YOU WOULD BE. 

CH:   WEAVER HUNDREDS OF SHELLS A DAY. WE WERE UNDER CONSTANT SNIPER FIRE. MANY JOURNALISTS HAD BEEN KILLED BY THE TIME I ARRIVED. FOUR TO FIVE PEOPLE WERE DYING A DAY. THE CITY WAS SURROUNDED BY A TRENCH SYSTEM. IT WAS KIND OF A WORLD WAR I TYPE SCENARIO. WE UNDERSTOOD THAT IF THE SERBS BROKE THROUGH THE TRENCHES, A THIRD OF THE CITY WOULD BE SLAUGHTERED AND THE REST WOULD BE DRIVEN INTO DISPLACEMENT CAMPS. THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THE VALLEY. AT THAT POINT, IT IS EXISTENTIAL CRISIS, WHERE THERE ARE FORCES BENT ON NOT ONLY YOUR ANNIHILATION BUT THE ANNIHILATION OF YOUR FAMILY AND COMMUNITY, YOU WOULD PICK UP A WEAPON. WE DID NOT HAVE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT PACIFISM. THAT IS WHY THE GREATEST EVIL IS MORE. I TELL THE STORY IN THIS BOOK ABOUT A MUSLIM SOLDIER AND THEY ARE TRYING TO MAKE A MOVE BUT HE HEARS A NOISE BEHIND A DOOR AND FIRES HIS AUTOMATIC WEAPON WITH A FEW SECONDS DELAY AND HE PUSHES OPEN THE DOOR AND FINDS THAT HE HAS KILLED A 12-YEAR-OLD GIRL. AN EVENT THAT HE NEVER RECOVERS FROM. THAT IS THE POINT. YOU PUSHED TO MOMENTS, BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE -- I BELIEVE IN GOOD WARRIOR. THAT IS THE TRAGEDY. IT IS A RESPONSE. NOT THAT HE UNDERSTOOD THAT VIOLENCE WAS EVIL, BUT HE ALSO UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE WERE MOMENTS WHEN HE MIGHT NEED TO BE PUSHED TO THAT PLACE WHERE VIOLENCE WAS ALL THEY HAD. 

PS:    HOW MANY TIMES ARRESTED? 

CH:   INSIDE THE STATES OR OUTSIDE? WEST AND I SHUT DOWN GOLDMAN SACHS. I HAVE BEEN ARRESTED A FEW TIMES. I WAS ARRESTED WITH SOME VETERANS OUTSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE. WE WERE PROTESTING THE WAR IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN. OVERSEAS? SEVERAL TIMES, I WAS A PRISONER. I WAS CAPTURED DURING THE SHIITE UPRISING. I WAS A PRISONER FOR A WEEK. I ALWAYS CARRY A BOOK. I READ 170 PAGES OF THE SAS KEY WHILE I WAS IN JAIL. I HAD OUTCAST OF THE ISLANDS AND ANTONY AND CLEOPATRA, MY FAVORITE SHAKESPEARE PLAY. AND HE FAILS BECAUSE HE IS NOT COLD-BLOODED LIKE CAESAR. IF WE HAD TO GET RID OF ALL OF SHAKESPEARE'S PLAYS, THE ONE I WOULD SAVE IS NC AND CLEOPATRA BECAUSE IT IS THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF POETRY, BUT IT IS A PLAY THAT I LOVE BECAUSE SHOWING HUMAN COMPASSION IN THE FACE OF COLD-BLOODED MISS -- THE SOOTHSAYER SAYS, YOUR SPIRIT DESSERTS YOU. OCTAVIO BECOMES A GUSTUS. SO I HAD THOSE, BUT I WAS TAKEN PRISONER BY THE CONTRA IN NICARAGUA. THEY WERE VERY ANGRY. THEY MARCHED US OFF INTO A CORNFIELD AND THEN RADIOED BACK TO HONDURAS TO SEE WHETHER THEY SHOULD SHOOT US. WE WERE SITTING WITH THESE GUYS WITH GUNS ON US AND THEY RADIOED BACK AND SAID, LET THEM GO. THEY SENT -- THEY SAID, TELL THEM THAT THEY BETTER NEVER COME BACK AND IF THEY DO, WE WILL KILL THEM AND EARN THEIR CAR. I THOUGHT, IF YOU KILL ME, I DO NOT REALLY CARE IF YOU BURN MY CAR OR NOT BUT NUMEROUS TIMES, HAVE BEEN HELD AND BEATEN. I WAS TURNED OVER TO THE SECRET POLICE. I THINK THAT IS KIND OF WHAT HAPPENS. I DO NOT LIKE IT. 

PS:   WHAT IS YOUR CONNECTION TO PRINCETON? 

CH:    RIGHT NOW, NOTHING. I HAVE TAUGHT THERE THREE TIMES. 

PS:   YOU LIVE IN THAT AREA. 

CH:    YES, BECAUSE OF THAT WONDERFUL LIBRARY, BUT THAT IS MY CONNECTION. LIKE ANY WRITER, ANY TO BE BY A GREAT RESEARCH LIBRARY. THAT IS HUGE. 

PS:   ANTERIOR FRIENDSHIP WITH CORNELL WEST? 

CH:   I LOVE CORNELL. IT HAS BEEN MY PRIVILEGE OR MY CURSE AND I THINK I AM VERY WELL READ UNTIL I SIT DOWN WITH ANY OF THEM, AND I HAVE TO ADMIT -- SHE BURIED ME AND ADMITTED THAT AFTER SHE FINISHED HER BUDGET WORK AT COLUMBIA -- HE TAUGHT RELIGION AT COLUMBIA AND THEN -- REMEMBER, I WAS A BUREAU CHIEF. HE IS REELING OFF BEATS THAT I DO NOT EVEN REMEMBER. AND THEN I HAD DINNER WITH CORNELL ONE NIGHT. I DID A LOT OF ENGLISH LIT. AND AFTER 50 MINUTES, I WAS TAKING NOTES UNDER THE TABLE, BUT THEY ARE ALL -- I THINK WE ARE ALL SUCH INDENT TO NUMB CHOMSKY. I SAID, SHOULD HAVE PUT YOUR NAME ON IT AS A CO-AUTHOR. EVERYTHING I UNDERSTAND COMES OUT OF WHAT YOU WROTE. AND CORNELL -- WHAT I LOVED ABOUT THEM IS THAT THESE ARE INTELLECTUALS WHO COULD HAVE SKEWED THE POLITICAL DEBATE, THE CONTROVERSY, AND BUILD MONUMENTS TO THEMSELVES WITHIN ACADEMIA. BUT THEY HAVE SUCH A CONSCIENCE. I BROUGHT CORNELL INTO THE PRISON. HE CAME BACK AND SHE WAS NOT PAID FOR IT. THERE WERE NO CAMERAS. HE TAUGHT A WONDERFUL PHILOSOPHY CLASS. THEY ARE THREE PEOPLE THAT I ADMIRE DEEPLY. THEY TEACH A CLASS TOGETHER. HE IS FROM THE MADISON SOCIETY. HE IS SO CHARMING. I DID THE OXFORD UNION BE. HERE OF ANY STATEMENT IS SEVEN MINUTE, SO I WAS TRYING DOWN AND TIMING IT. I SAID, HOW DID YOU MANAGE SEVEN MINUTE? 

SEVEN MINUTES? I DO NOT HAVE HIS CHARM. BUT THEY ARE AMAZING PEOPLE. I LOVE SUSAN. I MEMBERS SAYING THING. I MET SUSAN IN BOSNIA BECAUSE SHE HAD MOUNTED A PRODUCTION AND A THEATER. PEOPLE WOULD VISIT WHEN THERE WAS A CEASE-FIRE. IT WAS VERY DANGEROUS. A LOT OF RESPECT FOR HER FORGIVING. SHE WAS ABOUT MY AGE. SHE WAS IN HER SIX THESE. I KNOW THAT BOTH DAY THAT SHE, BUT I HAD A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH HER. 

PS:   WE ALWAYS ASK AUTHORS WHAT THEY ARE CURRENTLY READING SOME OF THEIR FAVORITE BOOKS. HERE ARE SOME OF OUR FAVORITES GIVEN TO US BY CHRIS HEDGES. IN SEARCH OF LOST TIME, MOBY DICK,, AND LIFE NC. THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO, THE ORIGIN OF TOTALITARIANISM, MORAL MAN AND MORAL SOCIETY, THE COLLECTIVE ESSAYS OF JAMES BALDWIN, THE COLLECTED ESSAYS, JOURNALISM AND LETTERS OF GEORGE ORWELL, AND THE BROTHERS CARE MATZOH BY. SKY -- AND THE BROTHERS KARAZAMOV. 

CH:   THAT LAST ONE IS ABOUT A MINING STRIKE. HE IS A GREAT REPORTER. IT IS A VERY POWERFUL WORD. AND WHEN HE WAS TAKING TO THE STREET OF PARIS, THE CROWD CHANTED. AN AMAZING WRITER. A BOOK THAT I READ BEFORE, I JUST FINISHED READING GULAG ARCHIPELAGO AND THREE QUARTERS OF THE WAY THROUGH ANOTHER WORK, WHICH IS A STUNNING PIECE OF SCHOLARSHIP. 

PS:   I HAVE NOT READ THE FIRST THREE OF YOUR FAVORITE BOOKS. I HAVE THEM ON MY BOOKSHELF AND ALWAYS WANTED TO. IN SEARCH OF LOST TIME, MOTHER -- I JUST IT WAS A REAL BOY. ULYSSES, I HAVE HEARD IT IS JUST VERY DIFFICULT. 

CH:   I DO NOT THINK IT IS NOT DIFFICULT. IN SEARCH OF LOST TIME, I'VE READ A DURING THE WAR IN BOSNIA. THEY TAKE THE BRIDGE OUT AND YOU HAD TO BEAR. I DO NOT THINK ULYSSES -- I THINK OF EDICT IS THE GREATEST AMERICAN NOVEL. IT IS ABOUT -- I FORGET WHO SAID IT WAS ABOUT THE DEATH OF CIVILIZATION, WHICH IT IS. EVERYTHING IS ENCAPSULATED. IT IS ABOUT THE OBSESSIVE HUNT FOR THE WHITE MALE. MELVILLE THOUGHT THE DEITY WAS MALEVOLENT. YOU KNOW WHO ALSO BELIEVE THAT? THE DEPUTY COMMANDER OF THE GHETTO UPRISING, THE ONLY ONE WHO ARRIVED. THERE IS A BRILLIANT BOOK. HE WROTE A HISTORY OF THE GHETTO, BUT THE GREAT JOURNALIST GETS BACK TO THE INTERVIEWER AND VOTE A BOOK CALLED SHIELDING, WHICH IS AMAZING. SHE INTERVIEWS HIM, BUT IT IS ABOUT MORAL CONSEQUENCE, AND HE TALKS ABOUT HOW IN UPRISING, THEY ALL KNEW THAT THEY WERE DOOMED, IT WAS JUST ABOUT HOW THEY WERE GOING TO DIE. HE SAID, BOTH MY ROLE IS TO SHIELD THE FLAME, TO PROTECT LIFE AS LONG AS I CAN. BUT THAT IS MELVIN. THAT IS MY -- 

PS:   WHAT IS THE FIRST THING THAT YOU MADE TO PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE LANGUAGE AND THE PROS? 

CH:    WHEN I TAUGHT KEY LEADERS, WE VETTED LINE BY LINE BECAUSE YOU ARE DEALING WITH THESE -- ELIZABETHAN LANGUAGE. YOU NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE WEDDING DEVICES IN THE PRISON. I WISH I HAD WRITTEN IT DOWN. THEY WOULD SUMMARIZE IT IN STREET SLANG, SO THEY SAY, HE SHOWED UP WITH HIS POSSE, BUT THEY GOT. BUT YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH A, LINE, BYLINE, IN ORDER TO BECOME A MILLIONAIRE WITH THE LANGUAGE. BUT ONCE YOU BECOME FAMILIAR, IT OPENS UP THE DOOR. THE POWER OF SHAKESPEARE IS THAT DEEP UNDERSTANDING. ALMOST UNRIVALED. I KNOW PEOPLE I READING SHAKESPEARE LESS AND LESS. MY WIFE IS JUST ABOUT TO APPEAR IN, AND REUNIONS THE IN THE PLAY, HIS SON DIED, AND THEN AFTER THE DEATH OF HIS SON, PEOPLE WHO YOU THOUGHT WERE LOST ARE COMING TO BE FOUND AGAIN. IN PERICLES, HE FINDS HIS DAUGHTER MARINA. MY WIFE HAD PLAYED IN JULLIARD. AND WHEN SHE WAS BORN, I WAS CITED THAT THE, RIGHT AFTER SHE WAS BORN, BY MEMORY. I WAS TERRIFIED I WOULD FORGET IT. MY WIFE SAID, I THOUGHT YOU WERE PRAYING. 

PS:   LIZ, THANK YOU FOR HOLDING ON. YOU ARE ON WITH CHRIS HEDGES. 

Caller:     I WAS A TEACHER AT A NEW JERSEY STATE PRISON FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS AND OUR COURSEWORK WAS GEARED TOWARD GETTING A STUDENT HIS HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA. HE WAS GOING TO BE CAPABLE OF IT AND HAD ENOUGH TIME TO GET THERE. BUT I THINK THE COLLEGE PROGRAM PREDATES EARLIER THAN THE GENTLEMAN FROM CAMDEN, WHO TALKED ABOUT GETTING IN 1948. I STARTED WORKING AT THE PRISON IN 1945 AND REMAINED THERE UNTIL 1999. AT THAT POINT, THERE WERE TIMES WHEN ONE OF THE AREAS THAT WAS SUSCEPTIBLE TO LAYOFFS WERE TEACHERS. WE HAD A SMALL FACULTY AT OUR PRESENT TO BEGIN WITH AND AN EVEN SMALLER ONE AFTER THE BUDGET CRISIS. WE GOT SOME OF THAT REVERSED WITH THE HELP OF THE SENATOR. 

PS:   WHAT DID YOU THINK OF YOUR YEARS WHEN HE TAUGHT AT THE STATE PRISON? WHAT WAS THAT LIKE FOR YOU? 

Caller:   I DID SOMETHING PRIOR TO THAT AND THEN TOOK THIS POSITION. 

PS:    I APOLOGIZE. I WILL HAVE TO LET YOU GO, UNLESS YOU CAN GIVE US SOMETHING THAT YOU WANT MR. HEDGES TO RESPOND TO. WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. 

  

Caller:   OK. WHAT DOES HE THINK ABOUT THE TO INVEST MORE HEAVILY IN EDUCATION, NOT ONLY FOR THE ONES GOING TO COLLEGE, BUT FOR THE ONES ENTERING REMEDIAL CLASSES?

CH:    ABOUT 40% ENTER OUR PRESENT SYSTEM A FOUR MOSTLY LITERATE. THERE IS STUDY AFTER STUDY THAT SHOWS THAT THE HIGHER THE LEVEL OF EDUCATION THEY ARE ABLE TO ATTAIN, THE LESS LIKELY RECEIVE RECIDIVISM. THERE IS JUST THE VERY PRACTICAL EFFORT OF THE FACT THAT IF WE ARE GOING TO PUT PEOPLE INTO PRISON, IT SHOULD BE ABOUT REFORM AND EQUIPPING THEM WHEN THEY LEAVE PRISON, TO FUNCTION AS SOLID CITIZEN WITHIN SOCIETY, RATHER THAN WAREHOUSING AND AND INCREASING THEIR TRAUMA. I THINK THERE IS ALSO THAT MORAL ELEMENT OF ALLOWING THEM TO ASK QUESTIONS AND STRUGGLE WITH THEIR OWN DIGNITY AND FINDING THEMSELVES, WHICH I THINK IS A COMPONENT OF ANY GOOD EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM. FOR THOSE TWO REASONS, I AM A HUGE PROPONENT. THE GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK SAID HE WAS GOING TO PROVIDE EDUCATION TO ALL AND THEN THERE WAS HUGE BLOWBACK. I THINK THAT IS THE SOLUTION, IF WE ARE SERIOUS ABOUT REFORM. 

PS:   SUSAN, YOU HAVE 30 SECONDS. 

Caller:   SUCH A PRIVILEGE. COULD YOU SPEAK TO THE INCREASING CRESCENDO OF REFERENCES IN THE MEDIA OF AN INEVITABLE COMING CONFLICT WITH CHINA? 

CH:   THE STOKING OF A CONFLICT WITH CHINA OVER TAIWAN AND THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, YOU CANNOT KEEP THESE MASSIVE MILITARY BUDGET, UNLESS YOU HAVE AN ENEMY. I RECALL GORBACHEV WANTED TO BUILD AN ALLIANCE WITH THE WEST. THOSE WITHIN THE ARMS INDUSTRY WERE DETERMINED TO MAKE RUSSIA AN ENEMY. I SEE THE SAME THING WITH CHINA.  

PS:   EARLY ON IN OUR CONVERSATION, HE SAID IT IS A BOOK THAT CAME FROM YOUR HEART. DOES THAT MAKE IT HARDER OR EASIER? 

CH:   HARDER. WAR IS SOMETHING THAT I WOULD NOT WANT TO FIGHT AGAIN. IT IS QUITE EMOTIONAL BECAUSE I CARE SIDDIQUI ABOUT THESE PEOPLE. IT IS HEARTBREAKING EVERYTHING HAS BEEN BACK AGAINST, BUT I WOULD SAY YOU ARE EMOTIONALLY, IT IS HARDER. 

PS:   CHRIS HEDGES, THANK YOU FOR COMING BACK TO THE TV A REPEAT PERFORMANCE. WE APPRECIATE IT. IF YOU MISSED ANY OF TODAY'S PROGRAM, IT WILL BE AIR IN JUST A ….