To present this material I have copied and pasted in the "uncorrected close caption material" from the C-Span 3 website to use as a transcript. It is imperfect but that does not really detract from the riveting story that Jarrett Adams, who was imprisoned for 9 years on a trumped up rape charge. He was freed by the efforts of the Wisconsin Innocence Project, and after he was released he worked on and obtained a JD degree and founded a public interest law firm. This is just one story of a person unjustly imprisoned after the barest excuse for a trial, in this case Jarrett Adams was represented by a barely competent public defender and the police and prosecution were well aware they were railroading an innocent young man, he was 17 years old at the time, into a 30 year prison sentence for a crime he did not commit. There are many other stories like this, a large proportion of them are about African-American young men, but Whites are subjected to this sort of treatment as well. The sort of nightmare that Adams describes could happen to anybody who cannot afford expensive legal counsel. The U.S. Criminal Justice System is a disgrace that resembles the “justice” meted out in authoritarian dictatorships. Kangaroo Courts and “plea bargains” are the norm. In fact the U.S. Justice System, both Federal and State, could not function even for a few days if most defendants actually were afforded the Trial by Jury supposedly guaranteed by our Constitution. That is an integral part of the fact that the U.S. imprisons a higher proportion of its population than any other country on the face of the Earth. Libery and Justice for all is a hollow boast and nothing but a PR slogan to cover the depredations of the rich against the rest of us. The rich actually enjoy trial by jury and a full roster of legal rights. The poor are treated like animals. It is an outrage against much of our population.
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October 23, 2021 | Part Of 2021 Wisconsin Book Festival
Redeeming Justice
Attorney Jarrett Adams discussed his criminal conviction and exoneration as well as the path to his current legal career. He spoke at the Wisconsin Book Festival in Madison.
Ken Frazier Board Member University of Wisconsin-Madison Libraries-Friends of the University of Wisconsin–Madison Libraries (KF)
Jarrett Adams Author (JA)
Steven Wright Co-Director Wisconsin Innocence Project (SW)
Posted online at < https://www.c-span.org/video/?
Transcript of Interview:
KF: GOOD EVENING, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO THIS IMPORTANT EVENT OF THE WISCONSIN BOOK FESTIVAL. I DO WANT TO SAY WITH RESPECT TO THE SPEAKER TONIGHT, IN ANOTHER YEAR THIS WILL BE A PACKED HOUSE. YOU TALK ABOUT THIS EXCELLENT BOOK. I AM THE DIRECTOR AT THE UW MADISON LIBRARIES AND CURRENTLY SERVE ON THE BOARD OF AFFAIRS. OUR FIRST GROUP IS PROUD TO BE ONE OF THE SPONSORS FOR TONIGHT'S PRESENTATION. AMONG OTHER THINGS, PROVIDING SMALL GRANTS TO SCHOLARS TO DO RESEARCH AND WRITE BOOKS. WE STRIVE TO IMPROVE ALL OF THE LIBRARIES OF THE CAMPUS INCLUDING THE GREAT LIBRARY AND ARCHIVES LIBRARY AND ARCHIVES OF THE WISCONSIN HISTORICAL SOCIETY AND WE SUPPORT THE UNIVERSITY'S EFFORTS TO ENCOURAGE STUDENTS TO CONSIDER CAREERS AND ACADEMIC LIBRARY ARCHIVES. IF THAT SOUNDS INTERESTING TO YOU, WE INVITE YOU TO JOIN US DESCRIBING AN INJUSTICE DONE TO TWO YOUNG BLACK MEN IN 1998 WHO WOULD EVENTUALLY STILL UNJUSTLY IMPRISONED 20 YEARS LATER. 1998 IS THE SAME YEAR THAT HE WAS CONVICTED OF RAPE AT AGE 17, A CRIME WHICH HE WAS INNOCENT OF COMMITTING. HE WRITES WITH REMARKABLE EMPATHY FOR OTHERS LIKE THESE TWO MEN AND EVEN FOR THE INDIVIDUALS WHO DID HIM GREAT HARM. THIS BOOK COULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT HIMSELF. HIS REMARKABLE ODYSSEY FOR A TEENAGER SENTENCED TO NEARLY 30 YEARS IN PRISON AND NOW LEADING IN THREE SOON TO BE STATES. MR. ADAMS BOOK IS A FAST COMPELLING READ BUT HIS IS A LONG STORY. HE WAS RELEASED FROM PRISON IN 2007 ON BOND, NOT YET EXONERATED AND IS HEALING FROM THAT INCARCERATION TOOK MUCH LONGER. HE WROTE HIS DOCTORATE FROM LOYOLA UNIVERSITY AND NOW LEADS OFFICES IN NEW YORK, CHICAGO, MILWAUKEE AND NEXT YEAR IN LOS ANGELES. MR. ADAMS IS ALSO COFOUNDER OF THE LIFE AFTER JUSTICE A NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION DEDICATED TO HELPING EGGS X HONOREES PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN UNJUSTLY IMPRISONED. TO HELP THEM REBUILD THEIR LIVES. PLEASE JOIN ME IN WELCOMING MR. ADAMS TO THE PODIUM. THANK YOU ALL.
JA: I'M TIED TO THE SEED BY ELECTRONIC WIRE BUT I WANT TO THANK YOU. IT IS A PLEASURE TO BE HERE AND I HOPE THAT YOU ARE NOT EXPECTING A SCHOLAR TYPE OF LECTURE BECAUSE THAT JUST IS NOT ME. WITH THAT, I WON'T TAKE OVER BECAUSE I KNOW MY GOOD FRIEND STEVE IS READY TO GO.
SW: WELCOME, EVERYONE AND THANK YOU FOR COMING. I'M AN ASSOCIATE CLINICAL PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN AND FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE IT IS MY HONOR TO BE WITH JARED TODAY, BUT I'M MINDFUL BUT I MINDFUL AS I READ HIS STORY THAT 129 EXONERATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES AND PEOPLE WHO WERE SACRIFICED TO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM. IN 2019 THAT NUMBER WAS ABOUT 130 BILLION INDIVIDUALS. 50% OF THE CASES HAVE HAD SOME TYPE OF MISCONDUCT WHETHER IT WAS POLICE OR PROSECUTORS. ALSO MINDFUL OF THE REPORTS THAT WISCONSIN HAS A HIGHER RATE OF BLACK MEN THEN ANY OTHER. A BLACK MAN IN PARTICULAR ARE 12 TIMES MORE LIKELY THAN WHITE MEN TO GO TO JAIL OR PRISON IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN. ABOUT 6% OF THE STATES POPULATION, WE REPRESENT ABOUT 42% OF THE POPULATION OF INDIVIDUALS INCARCERATED. THE STORY IS EXTRAORDINARY AND VERY COMMON. SO I GUESS I WILL START THEIR. HE'S RIGHTFULLY RECEIVED A GREAT DEAL OF ATTENTION AND HAS BEEN FEATURED ON NBC NEWS AND A CNN SO WITH THAT, WHAT MORE DID YOU HAVE TO SHARE?
JA: IT'S A LONG ANSWER BUT I WILL SHORTEN IT FOR TONIGHT. AT THE GRADUATION THEY GIVE YOU A DIPLOMA AND I REMEMBER WHEN THE TIME CAME I REMEMBER RUNNING TO MY MOTHER AND WANTING TO GIVE IT TO HER. SHE STARTED TO CRY AND I SAID YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT YOU WERE DONE CRYING AND IN TIME SHE SAID I'M CRYING BECAUSE I KNOW THAT YOU AREN'T GOING TO GO ON AND DO BIG LAW AND FORGET WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE ISOLATED ON THAT ISLAND IN THE COURTROOM WITH NO HELP. I KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO GO AND PRACTICE LAW AND DO SOMETHING THAT WILL HELP OTHER PEOPLE OUT. SO, I RUN OFF WITH A LAW DEGREE AND VERY EARLY I REALIZED THAT I WASN'T GOING TO SAVE EVERY KID WITH HIS ONE LAW DEGREE SO IT IS THAT. I HAD TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING DIFFERENT. I AM A NERD. [LAUGHTER] I'M READING A BOOK ABOUT SOUTH AFRICA RIGHT NOW. I STARTED TO READ DIFFERENT BOOKS AND WHAT I DIDN'T WANT TO DO IS I DIDN'T WANT THE STORY TO BE LOOKED INTO AS ANOTHER WRONGFUL CONVICTION BOOK. WHAT I DID WAS SPEND AS MUCH TIME WITH MY AND THAT WAS STILL ALIVE AND FOR THE FIRST TIME I LEARNED THE HISTORY OF WHO I WAS AND IT WAS IMPORTANT TO WRITE THE BOOK BECAUSE HOW OFTEN DOES THE NEWS ARTICLE. PORTRAY MEN AT THE TIME OF ACCUSATION. JUST A PICTURE AND YOU GET LOOPED INTO THESE STIGMAS AND HISTORICAL DEPICTION OF WHAT BLACK BOYS AND MEN CRIMINALIZE SO I WROTE THE BOOK FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF LOOK AT WHAT IT DOES TO THE COMMUNITY. THE BIGGEST VICTIM IN THE STORY IS THE COMMUNITY. JUST LIKE THE ONE IN MILWAUKEE. IN TIME, THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM 75 TO 48 MEN WHO'VE BEEN 40 AGE MEN WHO'VE BEEN WAREHOUSED FOR DECADES OR MORE. WHEN I STARTED TO WRITE THE BOOK THERE WAS A CALL TO ACTION. THERE WAS A CALL TO ACTION TO SAY HOW DO WE MOBILIZE AND HOW DO WE TAKE THIS BOOK, WHICH I BELIEVE IS A MANUSCRIPT TO THE SYMPATHY AND EMPATHY WE NEED TO GET THE ATTENTION OF THE FOLKS THAT HAVE POWER TO MAKE THESE CHANGES. THAT ARTICLE THAT JUST CAME OUT SINCE I WROTE THE BOOK, STARTED WRITING THE BOOK TWO YEARS AGO AND THAT'S ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I PUT IN THE BOOK BECAUSE THESE MEN THAT WERE PROVEN AS BOYS GREW UP THERE SO I THOUGHT LET ME WRITE THIS IN A WAY THAT NUMBER ONE EVERYBODY WITH A CHILD COULD LOOK AT THIS AND SAY THIS IS GOD AWFUL GOD AWFUL AND IF I GET YOU THERE WE WILL TAKE YOU TO THE COMMUNITIES IN WHICH PEOPLE WILL SET THEM UP AND COME FROM SO THAT'S WHY I WROTE THE BOOK. IT'S A CALL TO ACTION. AND I SAID THIS BEFORE WHEN I HEARD OF THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS LET ME IMPRESS UPON YOU THE IMPORTANCE BECAUSE THAT'S HOW YOU GET TO SAFETY AND SECURITY. YOU DON'T GET THERE BY LOCKING EVERYONE UP AND WISCONSIN HAS PROVEN THAT BY THE NUMBERS. WE WILL GET MORE INTO THAT MORE.
SW: YOU EXPLAIN TO FOLKS BUT THERE THERE'S A FAIR AMOUNT OF SOLITARY AND IT WAS 360 DAYS STRAIGHT?
JA: 360 DAYS AND THEN THERE WERE 800. HOW ARE YOU JUST ALONE IN THAT SPACE NOT ONLY WRONGFULLY CONVICTED BUT THEN THEY SORTA FIND OUT THAT YOU'RE HELPING PEOPLE AND WANT TO PUNISH YOU FOR THAT? WALK A PUPPY UP FOR A CLOSET AT TODAY'S AT A TIME AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. IF IT'S NOT OKAY TO DO IT TO A PET, HOW IS IT OKAY TO DO IT TO A HUMAN BEING IN ANY CAPACITY? THE THING ABOUT THE PRISON SYSTEM THE TIME I WAS INCARCERATED THEY OPENED UP THE WISCONSIN SECURE PROGRAM. IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME. WHEN THEY BUILT THAT PRISON IS OFFERED AT THE SAME THING THAT GOT US HERE RIGHT NOW. JESSE DONNER WAS KILLED IN PRISON AND THEY TOOK THAT AND WAGED A POLITICAL WAR AND THEY DID IT OUT OF FEAR IN THE SAME WAY THEY GOT THE CRIMINAL LAW, NOT PEOPLE THAT HAVE THE SAME THING. WHEN I STARTED TO REALIZE, I BECAME A TUTOR IN THE PRISON SYSTEM SO I HAD THE IGNORANCE OF BELIEVING THAT THESE PEOPLE WERE MAKING CHOICES TO COMMIT CRIME AND THAT WASN'T THE CASE. I ALSO REALIZED THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN READING AND UNDERSTANDING WHAT YOU'RE READING AND SO MANY WERE PLEADING GUILTY BECAUSE THEY SIMPLY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND AND I WILL GIVE YOU ONE IN PARTICULAR. THERE WAS ONE CALL OF MANUFACTURING A WEAPON AND YOU WOULD GET MANUFACTURING OF A WEAPON ESPECIALLY FOR BLACK MEN BECAUSE THEY WERE TO BREAK OFF THE TIP OF THE RAZOR TO GET A CLOSE SHAVE BECAUSE BLACK MEN'S HAIR CURLED UP INTO INGROWN HAIRS SO PLEADING GUILTY FOR THIS MANUFACTURING A WEAPON. I STARTED TO TELL THEM STOP SAYING GUILTY TO THAT BECAUSE THERE'S NO INTENT. I STARTED AND ALL OF A SUDDEN I'M GETTING SNATCHED OUT OF MY CELL AND THEY ARE ACCUSING ME OF THINGS THAT ABSOLUTELY MADE NO SENSE. ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE WISCONSIN INNOCENCE PROJECT WAS PROJECT WAS WORKING ON THE CASE FOR YEARS. SO WE COULD SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON AND ESSENTIALLY PEOPLE START PLEADING GUILTY TO THESE INFRACTIONS AND WE HAD LITTLE SANCTUARIES AND THEY COULDN'T SET UP THE BED SPACE SO JUST THINK ABOUT IT. IT HAPPENS IN THESE INSTITUTIONS INSTITUTIONS. THE BOOK IS TWO PARTS AS EXPERIENCED AS A VICTIM OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND THE JOURNEY TO BECOME AN ADVOCATE IN THE SYSTEM. I DON'T QUITE KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN TALKING ABOUT BUT IT STANDS OUT TO ME THE WAY THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE PART HAPPENED. THE BACKGROUND AS YOU HAVE GONE INTO A PARTY DESPITE WITNESSES AND A LITANY OF EVIDENCE SHOWING YOU WERE NOT GUILTY, YOU WERE FALSELY ACCUSED. THE ACCUSER SAY THIS DOESN'T SOUND CREDIBLE TO ME BUT LET'S START AT THE POINT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON AND YOU'RE 17 AND YOU DON'T HAVE A LAWYER YOU GO AND THINK THAT TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS AND THEN UNDERSTAND AND GO HOME. ANOTHER REASON WHY I STARTED EXPLAINING TO PEOPLE HOW I WAS RAISED BECAUSE IT LETS YOU UNDERSTAND SO I MENTIONED ABOUT MY GRANDMOTHER AND GRANDFATHER BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF US, A LOT OF FAMILY. NO ONE WAS FACING ANYTHING LIKE THIS. YOU WOULD THINK SHE WAS 7-FOOT TALL. IT WAS ALWAYS YOU DO WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO AND TO TELL THE TRUTH. BLACK KIDS SHOULD BE TAUGHT A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN THAT BECAUSE I HAD GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL AND WE RETURNED TO FRIENDS WE KNOW ARE GOING EVERYWHERE AND WE KNEW IT WAS COMING TO AN END. TOWARDS THE END OF THE SUMMER MAKING IT A LITTLE BIT OF EXTRA MONEY AND STUFF LIKE THAT AND SO WHEN I GET HOME, I'M NOW GRADUATED AND IT'S LIKE ROBBERY AND HOMICIDE. I'M WIDE AWAKE BECAUSE I KNEW THEY HAD THE WRONG GUY. THEY SAID HOW OLD ARE YOU AND I SAID 17. COME ON DOWN AND GET THIS OVER WITH. THE ENTIRE INTERVIEW I REMEMBER BEING CALLED KID, BOY, SON. WHEN WE WERE CHARGED, JUST THAT FAST. THEY WRITE THIS BOOK IN A WAY WHEN I WAS IN THE POLICE STATION [INAUDIBLE] AND THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN OVER. I THOUGHT IF I TOLD THE TRUTH [INAUDIBLE] THAT WAS MY BELIEF. IN THE INTERROGATION ROOM THERE WAS ONE POLICE OFFICER WHO HAD COME FROM WISCONSIN DOWN AND ALSO YOU HAD BEEN VERY MUCH IN THE BOOK. DEFEAT INTERROGATED OFFICER DIDN'T COME WITH AN OPEN MIND AND OF THE FOREGONE CONCLUSION I REMEMBER THE POINT LIKE AT WHAT POINT DID YOU KNOW AND A SORT OF LOSE THE OPTIMISM THAT TELL THE TRUTH IN STANDING UP BUT WOULDN'T GET YOU OUT OF THIS?
JA: IN ALL, THEN LET ME TELL YOU WHAT THEY WERE DOING. THEY KNEW ALL THREE OF US AND HERE'S WHY BECAUSE WE WENT AND I STAYED UP PLAYING VIDEO GAMES WITH A YOUNG THE YOUNG MAN WHILE THEY TOOK A STATEMENT IT WAS A THREE PAGE STATEMENT SO THEY GET KEPT TRYING TO FIGURE OUT. YOU SEE HOW EASILY IT COULD HAVE BEEN AND IT COULD HAVE TOTALLY THROWN THE CASE UPSIDE DOWN SO I KNEW THAT AND AS A 17-YEAR-OLD KID I WENT TO THE COUNCIL. YOU'RE TELLING THE TRUTH, YOUR GOOD. WHEN A CARAVAN SHOWED UP ABOUT A WEEK AND A HALF LATER BECAUSE WHAT THEY DID IS TOOK THAT INTERVIEW AND USED IT TO FILL IN THE BLANKS IN THEIR CASE. I WILL NEVER FORGET THE EMBARRASSMENT, SHOCK AND DISMAY. THE NAME OF THE CAMPUS [INAUDIBLE] [LAUGHTER] AS NAIVE AS THIS MAY SOUND, I NEVER THOUGHT THINGS WOULDN'T BE OKAY.
SW: WHAT IS EXTRAORDINARY ABOUT IT IS WHEN YOU GET TO WISCONSIN, YOU GO THROUGH IT'S CALLED A PRELIMINARY HEARING TO SHOW THAT EVIDENCE. THE JUDGE SAYS THIS IS A REALLY BAD CASE. I WILL NEVER FORGET HIS NAME. HE LOOKED AT THE CASE AND THIS IS SOMETHING I WANT TO MAKE SURE I SAY AS WELL. YOU KNOW WHAT THE FACTS OF THE CASE ARE, THE POLICE REPORT. SOMETIMES PEOPLE BECOME CONFUSED LIKE THE FACTS OF THE CASE ARE THE POLICE REPORT. THAT'S HOW THEATRICAL THINGS WORK. NO CONVERSATION AT ALL AND REALIZE THEY HAVE THE WITNESSES STATEMENT. I AM JUST DISMAYED AT THE ALLEGATION ITSELF ESPECIALLY BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW THE EXACT ALLEGATION UNTIL THE HEARING BUT BASED ON THE TESTIMONY, I DON'T SEE IT. THEY HAD THE POWER TO DO IT, BUT NOT ONLY THAT, IT IS VERY RARE TO GET A JUDGE THAT HAS NOT BEEN A PROSECUTOR HAS NO UNDERSTANDING THAT NOT EVERYBODY IN FRONT OF YOU IS GUILTY OF WHAT THEY ARE ACCUSED OF SO THAT JUDGE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY BUT I UNDERSTAND THE REALITIES OF IT. YOU CAN TELL LITERALLY I KEPT ASKING AT THE TIME LIKE WHERE DO BLACK PEOPLE LIVE, WHERE DO NATIVE PEOPLE LIVE? WE ARE IN THE COURTROOM IT'S JUST A WITHDRAWAL. JUST TO SUMMARIZE NEVER BEEN THROUGH THIS, GOING THROUGH IT. THAT'S THE NIGHTMARE JOURNEY IN THE BOOK. THAT'S MOST OF THE PEOPLE THAT GO THROUGH THE SYSTEM [INAUDIBLE] WHEN THERE WAS A MISTRIAL ME AND MY CO-DEFENDANT DEMETRI REALIZE THE REMAINING CO-DEFENDANT IN THE APPEAL. WHEN YOU GO SOMEWHERE AND IF YOU KNOW WHAT THAT CONVERSATION IS, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE GOOD. WE WANT TO GO AHEAD AND PROCEED. WE WILL TRY TWICE. FIRST, THE POLICE REPORT WASN'T TESTIFIED TO, SO THE STATE MOVED TO NEW CHARGES AND WE REQUESTED A MISTRIAL.
JA: THEY SAID I KNOW HE CAN'T WIN AND YOU WOULD THINK IT WAS OVER WITH BUT IT WASN'T. SO WE TRY AGAIN. WE GET BACK UP TO THE SECOND TRIAL. A GOOD AND WELL THIS DIDN'T MAKE SENSE. WHICH I THINK WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT AS WELL. A PANELIST'S ATTORNEY, GOT PAID WHEN THE CASE WAS CLOSED. SO LOOK, YOU SAID IT HAPPENED ON THE FIRST TRIAL. LET'S GET THIS OVER WITH. YOUR GOOD KIDS AND ALL OF THIS. I KNEW IT DIDN'T MAKE SENSE. I'M LOOKING ACROSS AT MY MOTHER. THE RING GOALS OF ANGER ON OUR FOREHEAD WERE TATTOOED IN AND I KNEW THAT THIS GUY WASN'T MAKING ANY SENSE. [INAUDIBLE] I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT AND WAS GOING TO PAY IT BACK. I THOUGHT IF I COULD GET IT OVER WITH WE WENT TO TRIAL, NEVER IMPEACHED THE WITNESSES ON THE INCONSISTENCIES THEN YOU CALL THE WITNESS. THE STRATEGY WAS A NO DEFENSE STRATEGY. AT 17, 18 I SAID YOU KNOW WHAT, NO DEFENSE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PROVE THEIR CASE. THAT'S A SOLID DISMISS. GOING INTO A TRIAL LIKE THAT SOME OF THE CASES WERE A STUDY OF JUSTICE. TWO OF YOU GET A STATE APPOINTED ATTORNEY AND ONE OF YOU GETS A PRIVATE ATTORNEY. THE FIRST CASE THE STATE APPOINTED ATTORNEYS BASICALLY JUST SORT OF LET THE PRIVATE ATTORNEY DO ALL THE REST. WHILE THE PAID ATTORNEY DID ALL THE QUESTIONING OUR ATTORNEYS DIDN'T EVEN GET IT OPEN BECAUSE THE PAID ATTORNEY AT THE TIME SO IT'S JUST SCARY. THIS ISN'T RIGHT BUT I BELIEVE THAT I KNOW THE PROSECUTOR IN ME THIS EVIDENCE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY ALLEGATION OF A CRIME BUT THE HISTORICAL DEPICTION OF YOUNG BLACK MEN AND THE ACCUSER SO FOR HIM IT'S ON THE REPRESENTATION TO PRESS FORWARD WE WOULD DIVIDE AND CONQUER AT THAT POINT AND I WILL NEVER FORGET PART OF THE REASON IS EXHAUSTING BUT I NEVER TOOK A TIMEOUT. I WILL NEVER FORGET JUST LOOKING AT I REMEMBER TURNING AROUND AND LOOKING AT MY MOTHER IN THE COURTROOM, I REMEMBER HOW SUNKEN IN HER EYES WERE INTO HER HEAD. SHE LOOKED LIKE MY GRANDMOTHER IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS. IT WAS LIKE WHAT IS GOING ON. THIS ISN'T ABOUT THE TRUTH FOR YOU. THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF MEN IN THE 60s IN THE SOUTH. YOU ASKED ME THE QUESTION. THAT'S WHEN I REALIZED IT WASN'T LOOKING GOOD.
SW: THE FIRST STATE APPOINTED ATTORNEYS THAT'S THE PROSECUTOR AT THE VERY END BASICALLY SAYS I'M NOT GOING TO WIN AND YOU ARE ALLOWED TO BE RETRIED. THE POWER OF ATTORNEY HAS FIGURED OUT THAT HE WANTS TO APPEAR IN THE CASE. YOUR ATTORNEYS DON'T FIGURE THAT OUT SO THEY MADE A DECISION WHICH IS CLASSIC AND EFFECTIVE.
JA: OF YOU GO TO A SECOND TRIAL BUT THIS TIME BECAUSE YOUR FRIEND IS GOING THROUGH AN APPEAL. IT'S YOU AND THE OTHERS AND BOTH OF YOU HAVE THE SAME ATTORNEYS AND SAME COUNSEL WHO JUST SAT THERE. THERE WAS JUST NO REASON. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN MISTRIAL. THE APPEAL WAS DIRECTLY AT THE HEART OF WHAT THIS ISSUE WAS. IT WAS JUST INEXCUSABLE. I READ THIS AS A PROFESSOR AND IT SEEMS LIKE THERE IS ONE CONSTITUTIONAL VIOLATION AFTER ANOTHER. WE LEARNED LATER NOT ALL EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE AND WE OF COURSE KNOW THAT THEY SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDE FOR OR FIVE PEOPLE THAT COME UP TO THE JURY ON THE STATE BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I REMEMBER I WAS SURPRISED THOUGH IT DIDN'T PUT A LIGHT BULB OVER YOUR ATTORNEYS HEAD, THE ARGUMENT OF THE STATE BEGINNING WITH THE POLICE AND THE PROSECUTOR IS WHY WOULD THIS WOMAN SLEEP WITH THREE BLACK MEN AND WE SAID THAT IN THE CLOSING. THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL, THAT IS ALL WE SAW. THAT'S HOW OBVIOUS AT THE TRIAL AND THAT IS WHAT HE KEPT SAYING AND WAS SCREAMING IT AT THE END OF THE FIRST TRIAL. IT JUST DIDN'T HAPPEN AND I CAN'T GO PAST THIS WITHOUT MENTIONING THE STATE PUBLIC DEFENSE SYSTEM IN WISCONSIN ISN'T BROKEN. IT WAS NEVER WORKING. YOU HAVE A SYSTEM WHERE THEY ARE OVERWHELMED SO WHERE IS THE SAFETY VALVE FOR THAT. CREATE A FUND WHERE YOU CAN ASSIGN EXPERIENCED ATTORNEYS AND PAY A DECENT RATE. RIGHT NOW, THE STATE IS NOT INCENTIVIZING GOOD REPRESENTATION. IT'S PUSHING IT AWAY THAT'S GOOD FOR SOME ATTORNEYS THAT CAN'T GENERATE THEIR OWN BUSINESS BUT THAT'S NOT GOING TO GET YOU THE CONSTITUTIONALLY AFFECTED REPRESENTATION ALL THE TIME AND SO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS. IF WE REALLY WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GOT IT RIGHT, WHY AREN'T THE SCALES LEVELED FOR PUBLIC DEFENSE, WHY ARE THEY DOING CIVIL SUITS TO GET THE FUNDING TO REPRESENT THE STATES. I DON'T WANT TO COME ACROSS AS A SCIENCE MAJOR OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, BUT I'M TELLING YOU RIGHT NOW WE COULD FIX THIS THING, BUT THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT AFFECTED BY IT AND PEOPLE THAT ARE BENEFITING FROM THE PRISON SYSTEM AND THE JOB THAT IT CREATES WHO ARE CHOOSING NOT TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT TO SAVE THE LIVES OF FOLKS THAT MAY BE INNOCENT THAT HAVE GONE THROUGH THE SYSTEM. IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BECOMES EVIDENT. THE STATE HAS TO DO THE INVESTIGATIONS. PART OF THE REASON YOU WERE ABLE TO VINDICATE YOURSELF, THERE WERE WITNESSES AT THE PARTY IS TO HAVE INVESTIGATORS THAT COULD HAVE SAT THEM DOWN AND THE POLICE HAD TALKED TO THEM THEY KNEW WHAT HAPPENED IN THE NEXT NIGHT I COULDN'T USE THAT WORD ENOUGH. WE CAN TO BLOCK OUT HISTORY OR HURT PEOPLE'S FEELINGS BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY THAT YOU WILL FIX THINGS AHEAD OF THE ROAD THAT IS THE THING THAT JUST KEPT I KEPT SAYING TO MYSELF FROM THE FIRST TIME -- YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A DECADE NOW AND SO I REMEMBER ASKING ABOUT AND INVESTIGATOR AND SAYING SOMETHING ABOUT A BUDGET. THE POINT YOU MADE WAS IMPORTANT BECAUSE AT THE DISPOSAL OF THE STATE, LET'S COUNT HOW HUGE THAT IS WHEN THEY SAY STATE VERSUS SO AND SO SO FOR MY PUBLIC DEFENDER EVEN IF HE WANTED TO GET IN INVESTIGATOR, THERE WOULD HAVE HANDEDHAD TO BE A PROCESS ASKING FOR A BUDGET AND AGAIN IT'S NOT CONDUCIVE. IF WE DON'T WANT TO GET IT RIGHT WE DON'T GIVE THE RESOURCES THEY NEED TO HIRE BECAUSE YOU DON'T GIVE THE STATE DEFENDER SYSTEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO PAY ATTORNEYS TO PROVIDE REPRESENTATION. SO THIS IS ABOUT THE DESIRE IN TERMS OF THE ISSUES IN THE BOOK. I'M GOING TO MOVE ON TO THE EXPERIENCE THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME AT SENTENCING THE JUDGE SAYS SOMETHING LIKE I WAS GOING TO GIVE YOU 20 YEARS BUT I DIDN'T LIKE YOUR ATTITUDE, SO I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU 28. SO WHEN I KNEW THAT IT WAS IN WE WERE GUILTY BECAUSE THAT THE SECOND I KNEW WHAT TIME IT WAS BUT I TURNED AROUND AND LOOKED AT MY MOTHER I KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON. I JUST COULDN'T HAVE MY AUNT AND MOTHER SITTING UP IN THIS COURTROOM AND HERE MAY BE DEPICTED AS SOMEONE OTHER THAN WHO THEY RAISED SO I STOOD UP AND EVERYONE IN HERE, MY MOM, EVERYONE IN THE ROOM, I'M NOT GOING TO APOLOGIZE FOR SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN, AND I PRAY YOU SOMEDAY TELL THE TRUTH, SO THE JUDGE OVERHEARD OF THIS AFTER THE FINDING AND WHEN I CAME BACK AFTER SENTENCING, SHE TOLD ME EXACTLY WHAT YOU JUST SAID. SHE GAVE ME EIGHT ADDITIONAL YEARS BECAUSE SHE SAID I WASN'T REMORSEFUL. I DIDN'T KNOW THE REMORSEFUL WAS ON THE CODE AND AGAINST THE LAW BUT APPARENTLY, SHE WAS ABLE TO DO SO AND SO LET ME POINT THIS OUT. SHE SAVED THE TRAJECTORY IN MY LIFE BECAUSE I WENT TO THE MAXIMUM THERE WAS NO CONSIDERATION. DIMITRI ENDED UP STAYING AND WENT TO BE MANY MEDIUM AND SO I'M WITH THIS OLDER WHITE DUDE THAT HAD BEEN THERE FOR A LONG TIME. I'M ON THE PHONE WITH MY MOM [INAUDIBLE] I AM TRYING MY BEST WITH MY CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION THEY KEPT SAYING HOW DOES SOMEONE NEVER ARRESTED GETS 28 YEARS IN PRISON THEN, FORGET THAT, HOW DOES SOMEONE USE THE PRESENCE OF BEING BLACK [INAUDIBLE] I'M LITERALLY DEBATING IT, LIKE I CAN'T EVEN ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS. HE JUST WAS LIKE I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE DOING BUT YOU'RE GOING OUT AND PLAYING BASKETBALL AND ALL THIS TYPE OF STUFF. LET ME READ YOUR PAPERWORK SO WE READ IT AND HE MENTIONED THE WITNESS WHO CAME UP WHO WAS THERE FOR ALMOST THE ENTIRE THING AND WHOSE TESTIMONY NEVER REALLY GOT THERE. HE HAD LIKE A THREE SENTENCE LITTLE NOTE IN THE PAPERWORK. THAT'S WHEN I STARTED TO WRITE WHO WAS REPRESENTING AND I SAID WE'VE GOT TO GO OUT AND FIND THIS DUDE. THAT'S WHEN IT LATER CAME OUT THIS STATEMENT INTO THE THING ABOUT IT IS WHEN THE STATEMENT CAME OUT, THE PROSECUTION ALMOST IMMEDIATELY DISMISSED THE CHARGES WHO WAS THE MAIN CODEFENDANT AND PAID ATTORNEY BECAUSE THEY WERE ABLE TO HIRE AN INVESTIGATOR AND WHEN THEY BROUGHT THIS TO THE ATTENTION OF THE COURT INTO THE PROSECUTOR THEY SAID WE ARE DONE SERVING 20.
JA: I FELT IF THE EVIDENCE WAS STRONG ENOUGH TO GET TO A NEW TRIAL, THE PROSECUTOR SAID THE STRATEGY DIDN'T INCLUDE THE WITNESSES SO THAT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM. I POINTED OUT THE INNOCENCE PROJECT. I POINTED OUT THE ISSUES AND THEY TOOK AND DRAFTED THE TWO ISSUES. FIRST OF ALL THE ELEMENT IT WAS JUST CRAZY BUT SECOND THING WAS THE COUNCIL THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE CODEFENDANT SO I GO UP AFTER THIS IS REVERSED AND IN THE INTEREST OF JUSTICE FOR THE SAME JUDGE THAT GAVE ME 20 YEARS, QUOTE ON QUOTE SHE SAID THEY APPEALED THE CASE TO THE COURT [INAUDIBLE] INNOCENCE, GOLD, NONEGOALS, NONE OF THAT JUST SIMPLY SAID IT'S THE INTEREST OF JUSTICE BUT THE COURT WHY ARE WE GETTING THESE TYPE OF OPINIONS AND AGAIN IT IS IMPRESSIVE TO DO THE SAME WE'VE DONE BEFORE WITH THE CONVERSATION OF RACE I AM NOT A SCHOLAR AND TO ADDRESS THIS QUALITY, WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET PAST THIS AT ALL. UNTIL SOMEONE IS ON THE COURT WHO CAN DECIDE AT THIS FOR WHAT IT WAS, THEY WOULD HAVE DONE WHAT THE THURGOOD MARSHALL QUOTE SAID. SOMETIMES YOU'VE GOT TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT AND LEFT OF THE LAW CATCH UP. WE CAN'T KEEP RELYING FOR IT TO COME OUT OF THE WAY WE NEED. WE'VE GOT TO KEEP CHANGING IT SO IT'S IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE USE THE BOOK TO MOBILIZE HOW TO GET IT DONE AND HOW YOU GET IT DONE IS THIS. EVERYTHING THAT RESULTS IN THE COUNTY. THERE NEEDS TO BE A GROUP TO HOLD JUDGES ACCOUNTABLE. WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING THE DECISIONS. I AM OF THE NOTION THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE STILL IN THE WISCONSIN PRISON SYSTEM THAT ARE INNOCENT. SOMETIMES THE WINDOW ISN'T GOING TO GET CLEAN. YOU KNOW MISTAKES WERE MADE AND NOW IT COMES DOWN TO FIRST HOW DO WE GET THE CANDIDATES TO REPLACE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE THE OPPRESSORS OF THE QUALITY OF JUSTICE AND WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD.
SW: ABOUT TEN MINUTES. THERE IS A MICROPHONE OVER HERE. WE TALK ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE GOING THROUGH BUT ABOUT PEOPLE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR PASSION FOR HELPING OTHER MEN THAT HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE --
JA: I HAVE PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY THAT REACHED OUT AND HAD A FORMER ATTORNEY WHO TOOK ME UNDER HIS WING WHEN I GOT TO CHICAGO I WANTED A PRESENCE HERE BUT NOT JUST THE PRESENCE ABOUT SOMETHING THAT WOULD TACKLE THE ARTICLE. I'VE GOT EQUITY AND CITIZENSHIP. I'M NOT PROUD OF THE ARGUMENT THAT CAME OUT. IT'S EMBARRASSING. WE HAVE TO GO FROM HAVING A CONVERSATION ABOUT IT TO IMPLEMENTING THINGS SO THAT'S WHY I WANTED TO HAVE A PRESENCE BECAUSE SO MANY OF THE LETTERS I GET THAT ARE INCARCERATED WHEN I WAS INCARCERATED AND WE ARE NOT DOING A GOOD JOB OF IT. THEY'VE HAD EXPERIENCE IN THE SYSTEM BEFORE. IMAGINE IT'S A CAR COMPANY. IMAGINE THEY HAD A 60% TO THE PRODUCTION LINE AFTER TWO OR THREE YEARS AFTER THE PRODUCTION LINE. CONGRESSCONGRESS WOULD HAVE A NATIONAL DEBATE SO I GO BACK TO THE SOCIETY. THE SCARIEST THING I SAW [INAUDIBLE] IT'S LIKE HAVING TIME TO SHUT DOWN A CORPORATION WHEN THE PRODUCT KEEPS COMING BACK AND HAVING A CONVERSATION MORE IMPORTANTLY GIVING THE COMMUNITY THE RESOURCES IT NEEDS. THE ONLY WAY TO FIX IT IS TO AND POWER THE OPPORTUNITY AND GIVE THE RESOURCES THAT IT NEEDS. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU USE EVERY DAY AT HOME, TV, WHATEVER IT IS. IF SOMEONE BREAKS INTO YOUR HOME, WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IS DO YOU HAVE THE RESOURCES AND THE SET UP. NOW YOU LOOK AT THAT AND SAY TO YOURSELF THAT'S HOW WE FIX THIS THING. THERE ARE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS IN THEIR COMMUNITY, AND WE CAN'T DO THAT IF WE CONTINUE WITH THE POLITICAL TALK AND EVERYBODY RUNS A CAMPAIGN ABOUT CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM AND WE ARE OVER HERE FIGHTING WITH PEOPLE.
SW: WE HAVE A QUESTION OVER HERE.
Q: I'M INTERESTED IN THIS CRIME THAT YOU ARE ACCUSED OF. WAS IT THAT THERE WAS AN ASSAULT AND THEY JUST GOT THE WRONG GUY'S THAT WERE PERPETRATED WERE A VICTIM WAS LYING ABOUT THE WHOLE THING, DID YOU EVER FIND OUT?
JA: YOU DIDN'T READ THE BOOK. [LAUGHTER] WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, YOU HAVE GOT TO READ THE BOOK. THIS WAS A FALSE ACCUSATION THAT SPRAWLED OUT A VAN AND EMBARRASSING A COUNTER.
Q: SINCE YOU SAY IT WAS A FALSE ACCUSATION. THE QUESTION I HAVE IS IS THERE ANY SENSE OF JUSTICE OF THE PERSON THAT MADE THE FALSE ACCUSATION?
JA: THIS ISN'T JUST MY CASE, IT'S ALL CASES THAT I KNOW OF AS A WITNESS FOR THE STATE AND THE REPERCUSSIONS. PART OF THE REASON IS IF THEY START TO PROSECUTE PEOPLE THAT ARE LYING OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, THEY RUN THE RISK OF ALL THE NONSENSE. I KNOW FOR A FACT THIS FALSE ACCUSATION INSTEAD OF CALLING NAMES, THAT IS WHAT KIDS DO. SOMETIMES WHEN KIDS HAVE THEIR BACKS PRESSED AGAINST THE WALL, THEY DON'T MAKE THE BEST DECISIONS AND CHOICES BUT FROM DAY ONE, THEY KNEW WHAT THE TRUTH WAS. THEY DECIDED THEMSELVES WE ARE NOT GOING TO MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY.
SW: I THINK THAT IS A GOOD PLACE TO END. THIS IS THE FIRST DAY WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO SUBMIT THE FESTIVAL IN TWO FULL YEARS DURING THE LAST WAS 2019. THIS IS ALSO THE 20TH TIME MADISON WISCONSIN THE WORLD HAS GATHERED TO CELEBRATE THE WISCONSIN BOOK FESTIVAL SO THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THAT TONIGHT.
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